[FinalArcana]

I'm talking about her personality. Look at how addicted she is to power. When that power's defeated, she'd go frantic. Nobodies may not really have emotions but they have memories and that ties to emotions, which can explain how they act as if they're actually feeling something. These two things shape personality and she likely remembers what it was like to act like that.

[sakuchan]

^^^or at least that is what she wants you to believe
nobodies are the non-existing ones
nobodies=nothing=no emotion --- you know what I'm talking about
(If Pete's no.2, who's 1)

You can't tie that to nobodies having no personalities because obviously they do. Their personalities probably resonate with their previous selves.

(some guy who helped set up the forum)

[KrisV]

no not really. Any emotion that they [try] to show, isn't real. They act like they have it. (except for probably Roxas and maybe Namine)
That's been stated so much times in the game and on this forum---you should know that by now...

[[[and i didn't read the 26th post until now..so i think that makes sense]]]

[FinalArcana]

no not really. Any emotion that they [try] to show, isn't real. They act like they have it. (except for probably Roxas and maybe Namine)
That's been stated so much times in the game and on this forum---you should know that by now...

[[[and i didn't read the 26th post until now..so i think that makes sense]]]

We know it's not real. However, they had emotions when they were whole, before they were Nobodies. This influenced their personalities. They remembered the way they behaved. Don't be an idiot and assume sakuchan or me (whoever you directed it at) don't know that Nobodies don't truly have emotions when you are conveniently ignoring what's been said.

[The Cloaked Schemer]

The concept about no emotions gives me trouble. You can't not feel in my opinion. otherwise they'd have no want to be hole again. they couldn't want. because when you want something that bad, you'd be happy thinking about it and they can't be.

another thing is the fact most of them feared death. E.G Vexen. Demyx. Zexion. Fear is an emotion, how could they do that so instinctively if they'd have to put on the emotion

[FinalArcana]

It's in their personality, their behavior. Emotions and feelings have a connection to people's behaviors and personalities. I think that is why they can't feel anything but can fake it as if they were actually feeling it. Personality is separate from emotion and feeling but it is heavily influenced by them.

[Keyblademasters]

I think that Marluxias thinking was that he could control Sora like he did Namine.

[Baks]

Put into better clarity, Marluxia wanted to manipulate Sora via Namine so Sora would destroy the Organization for Marluxia. I'm not sure but Marluxia should know that he, as well as the rest of the Organization, are not able to wield the keyblade so directly controlling the keyblade is out of the question. They can use Sora to kill other people and open locked doors, but they can't use the keyblade themselves.

I don't think there's much more to Marluxia than the fact that he's a narcissist and hungry for power. To top the cake, he hates Xemnas. For a bad guy, those are all the reasons you need. Xigbar probably has more background than Marluxia, since he quoted as having met keybladers other than the ones we're familiar with. It's too bad he's dead now.

Thus begs the question, why was Marluxia put in charge? Marluxia is one of the newer members, so you'd think that Xemnas would place a senior, more trustworthy member on that spot. One could argue that Marluxia is one of the stronger members, but common sense would tell you that having a really strong, potentially untrustworthy person as a leader of a place of importance is a consequence waiting to happen. Is, or should Xemnas even be surprised that Marluxia betrayed everyone? My theory is that, Xemnas wanted the secrets of castle oblivion to stay secret, and being the person Marluxia is, he wouldn't discover anything Xemnas has hidden.

In response to Hakumei's other 2 questions....
Marluxia ordered Vexen to kill Sora, yet expected Vexen to be killed-it is really what I would do in Marluxia's place if I wanted to get rid of some nuisances. Pit your enemies against each other.

It's a mystery what Roxas's role is in the organization. If you recall, in FM+, all Roxas does on his missions is kill Heartless. I think there's more to do with Roxas's identity-he's Sora's Nobody afterall, and can wield the keyblade. If Xemnas didn't want Sora to become whole, he'd keep Roxas on his side. Has anyone noticed, though, that Xemnas made no real attempt to retrieve Roxas after Roxas ran from the organization? I don't know what I'm trying to speculate. 3 words: I don't know. lol.

You raise a very good point, Sakuchan that raises even more questions - if Xenmas did truly believe that Marluxia was a traitor, why didn't he just simply take him out or puts someone more trustworthy in charge at Castle Oblivion.

Or better still why didn't Xenmas go to Castle Oblivion with all the other Org members to make that their plan to manipulate Sora had a better chance of succeding. Another good reason for Xenmas to do this would be also to keep a closer watch on Marluxia if the Org was at full strength.

It beats me why Xenmas didn't do this and why the Org was at half strength so to speak in CoM. Also its never really explained in either CoM and KHII why Xenmas didn't do this.

[Cloud Leonhart]

The concept about no emotions gives me trouble. You can't not feel in my opinion. otherwise they'd have no want to be hole again. they couldn't want. because when you want something that bad, you'd be happy thinking about it and they can't be.

another thing is the fact most of them feared death. E.G Vexen. Demyx. Zexion. Fear is an emotion, how could they do that so instinctively if they'd have to put on the emotion

I agree. I think Nobodies do have some emotion. Axel was friends with Roxas but how could he care about him if he had no emotions?

Spoiler

Plus Axel died in KH2 to save Sora from the nobodies, why would he do that if he had no emotions?

The original six Organization members hate the newer ones, they couldn't hate without emotions.

[The Cloaked Schemer]

I swear I just posted this on another topic...

Either way. take my view on it if it helps.

In CoM someone says something like.

"If you pretend that something happened for long enough. It becomes like it actually did"

I reckon that's what happened with the organization members. They pretended to have emotions for so long that it became second nature to them.

[sakuchan]

The Crusader has offered a fantabulous, comprehensive explanation for how Nobodies can "feel."

Nobodies are the shell of a being. They have no heart and becasue of this they cannot feel any emotion. They do feel physical pain seeing as pain is not an emotion, but is tied to the sense of touch. They are unable to actually feel emotional pain or any variation of an emotion.

However...

Most Nobodies pretend to feel emotion. This is kinda hard to explain, so listen good... Even though they do not feel emotion, they still know when and how to use it. With most people an emotion may be like a natural reflex, but with Nobodies an emotion is a thought. If you see something sad you might cry, if a Nobody sees something sad they will know that it is something sad, but will choose if they want to act sad or just stay unaffected.

Buuuuut...

Some Nobodies forget that they cannot feel. They act to feel things for so long that it becomes a natural reflex or a second nature again.
But like I said, regardless of whether they are acting or lying to themselves, it's still fake.

Nobodies still retain their memories, so like Xemnas said to Sora, they remember what it was like to have feelings.

[sakuchan]

You raise a very good point, Sakuchan that raises even more questions - if Xenmas did truly believe that Marluxia was a traitor, why didn't he just simply take him out or puts someone more trustworthy in charge at Castle Oblivion.

Or better still why didn't Xenmas go to Castle Oblivion with all the other Org members to make that their plan to manipulate Sora had a better chance of succeding. Another good reason for Xenmas to do this would be also to keep a closer watch on Marluxia if the Org was at full strength.

It beats me why Xenmas didn't do this and why the Org was at half strength so to speak in CoM. Also its never really explained in either CoM and KHII why Xenmas didn't do this.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. How trustworthy can any one of the Org. members be? If they could betray Ansem the Wise, then all of them were capable of betraying each other, no matter how loyal they claim to be. Keep in mind that these are not people who play by the rules. I don't think Xemnas trusts any of them, really. Nor do any of them trust each other in particular. If Xemnas had a secret in Castle Oblivion (and that's a big IF, since we don't really know what's up with Castle Oblivion other than Namine), he'd put someone who's not so inclined to figure any secrets out, someone who wasn't involved in the original members (none of the first 6 members) and one who's strong enough to justify the choice should the others wonder. Maybe Xemnas was even trying to keep people like Vexen and Zexion in control, as they were intellectual individuals and the type who were out to find answers.

Maybe if Castle Oblivion was crucial to the organization's goal, Xemnas would have graced us with his presence in CoM, but my guess is that Xemnas could have done without Namine. She's got extraordinary powers, it's true, but Xemnas might have treated her as an experiment on Sora, more than have an intact plan to use both Namine and Sora to his advantage. He was exploring that possibility, you could say. In KHII, we see that Xemnas' ultimate goal is to open up Kingdom Hearts; he would accomplish that by destroying Heartless to build up a mass of hearts. Well, he still used Sora for that purpose, didn't he? Even though things did not proceed as expected in Castle Oblivion, Xemnas could still do what he set out to do.

[Lucifur]

Flack, its happened again. First Jack with aa keyblade, now this. Ah well.


I've thought about it for a while, and I can only come to this conclusion- Xemnes sent Marluxia to die. He knew that he was turning traitor, and instead of just outright killing him, used him to test Sora's strength. Also, just thought of this, is it possible Xemnes knew nothing of Namine? I don't realy remember, but didn't Saix seem suprised when Namine showed up? Like a "who are you" suprise?

[FinalArcana]

How would Xemnas know that Sora would even go to Castle Oblivion? Sora probably wouldn't have gone there if it weren't for Marluxia.

[Lucifur]

Ah, I've just realized how flawed my theory is this morning.
But still, we(those of us who haven't played FM)(Or haven't seen it anywhere) don't know who led Sora to the castle. In CoM, he kept his hood up, if you recall.

[The Cloaked Schemer]

Yeah, hate to burst your bubble

But we do now. Thanks to RE:CoM

It was Marluxia
You can tell because with his actions in RE:CoM flowers come off him. Well, petals.

Sorry

[lewis.jeans]

I'm hoping a lot of this will be explained in one of the new KH games. I do have some trouble keeping up with all these names with X in them but maybe more of their backgrounds will be explained 'cause we all know where 7 of them come from but nothing about the others, unless I've missed something? I've never really thought more of Marluxia trying to take over than it would give him the power to order Xenmas and those around a bit more, but I haven't played CoM in a while. One thing I noticed Axel say in KH2 was "I'm not going to be turned into a Dusk for this", as far as I know this part isn't really explained. If Xenmas has the power to turn Nobodies into Dusks and he wanted some of the Organization out of his way... why didn't he just do that?
Sorry if any of this is irrelevant or stupid or whatever, I'm not as up to date as some of the people in this forum seem to be.

[The Cloaked Schemer]

Hehe, Bring you up to date shall I?

By the seven we know I guess you mean the ones in kh2.

AKA:
Xenmas
Xigbar
Xaldin
Saix
Axel
Demyx
and Luxord.
+
Roxas

The others were in another game that untill like a few months ago was only on GBA.

they are:
Vexen
Lexaeus
Zexion
Larxene
and Marluxia

The dusk comment I've never been sure about, and no, your right, it never is explained

However, it all should be explained in 358/2days

sorry if i said anything you knew.

[lewis.jeans]

I got most of that, but thank you :] nice of someone to help. There's still a lot of stuff in other topics that I really don't understand, even after playing the 3 games released in the UK. I guess a lot of gossip has come out about the newer games that I've missed. It's kinda hard to find where it all comes from though.
By the 7 I meant the 6 apprentices + Roxas. I'm still pretty interested in where the others came from, especially Axel (there is the theory that he's Riku's Nobody but I guess that's for another thread)

They really have a lot to clear up in these 3 games coming up, I think mostly in 358/2 Days though because there's a lot left to explain about Organization XIII. Maybe Marluxia's motives will become more clear in that because he could have had the plan of over throwing Xenmas even before Castle Oblivion came into it.
Who knows? Maybe he thought going after Kingdom Hearts was pretty pointless.

[daman]

I reckon that Marluxia wanted to take control of the organization by taking control of Sora (power of light) via Namine and Zexion saw this and decided to take Riku (power of Darkness) to combat Marluxia's plan.
Another one is maybe he found out that one day he would return to to where he came from (sora and roxas) and he wanted to use Sora to stop that some how. Interesting phenomenon huh?

[Doomy]

The thing I wonder about is why he wanted to overthrow the Organization? What purpose would that serve? The organization wanted to restore their hearts so why woud it matter who was the leader?

One word: Ego.

[Haelsyx]

After reading your replies, another thought was touched up here but not expanded, that the motives for Castle Oblivion could have been somewhat Machiavelli... maybe Xemnas (/Saix, he seems pretty close to running things) were trying to expell the more ambitious members? Getting rid of the old minds that were too smart and thought too well for themselves, as well as the newer members who were too eager for power. Xigbar doesn't seem that eager for power at all, and what's left of the rest of the organization are new blood and mostly seem devoted to Xemnas and the cause.

Vexen's obsession with numbers also would disrespect Saix, Saix at this point the second in command. Vexen's obsession for ranking might make him seem like a mutineer already.

Marluxia and Larxene, to fit in with this theory, probably always showed an attitude similar to the one in Castle Oblivion. Or maybe they so obviously kissed ass to superior that Saix had already suspected their other plans.

And of the original 6, Lex and Zexion are very intelligent, worked very close in the labs with Xemnas, know the secrets of the secret room and etc; maybe Xemnas needed to get rid of them for their knowledge as well as their free thinking alterior motives. Xemnas only wants nobodies who are soley thinking about getting their hearts back.

I remember reading somewhere that Axel was acting on extremely loyal motives during C.O. , to the Organization, which is maybe why he was sent in the first place; because he truly wanted a heart back and was thus much easier to manipulate. Zexion, Lexaeus, Vexen, Marluxia and Larxene don't seem to be as urgent in this need, obviously having alterior motives, and so Xemnas couldn't trust them.

What would have been the point of Castle Oblivion if Xemnas didn't know about Namine? Kill Sora and leave Roxas alive and working for the Organization?

[PathBeyondTheLight]

What I've come to know is that nobodies feel no emotion, no ambition, no desire... except possibly the desire for desire, a heart basically.

So how come Marluxia "desired" to overthrow the organization? So confusing...

I realize you can't just have 13 villains that all act monotonous, but seriously it seems like an intentional plot hole... oh well.

My theory is that though they cannot feel emotional towards any one person or event in the present, they can muster up "fake" emotion, emotion that feels very real to them, by using the past memories of their true lives they've all kept (except Xehanort). We all know they remember what emotion is supposed to be like, but we don't know if they actually "feel" the emotion in their memories, only that they can act them out.

Has anyone ever done that? Have you ever remembered feeling a way, feeling it through your memory, yet longing for that "true" feeling once again? If you have you know what I mean... and believe me, it hurts.

So what I'm trying to say is Marluxia was a power hungry, possibly manipulative individual in his true existence. These memories and emotions associated with them still linger, so he feels the thrill from his olden days and uses that constant memory to propel his present goals, though he has no true desire to see them through.

[The Legandry Zian]

Murluxia was put in charge because it was HIS castle.
It wasnt a test of loyalty or anthing else.