[Denizen]

^^; I'm sorry. Not to butt in on your conversation...but I just wanted to reply to someone who posted earlier about Riku and Axel. I think that's a very, very reasonable theory, to be perfectly honest with you all. Here's why. [Sorry in advance if it may seem farfetched, but at least think about it.] The following theory was presented to me by a friend online who did all her research very well and compiled a nice manifesto/essay regarding the issue of Axel=/= Reno, and Axel=Riku. So please, do not give me credit.

Whoah, whoah, whoah, you're suggesting that Axel is Riku's Nobody? No matter how much evidence you use, there will always be one flaw: Riku was never a Heartless and never created a Nobody.

Axel, before he was named, had to have given Xemnas a fake name to cover the identity of his Somebody. I don't have the time to type out 20+ pages of a manifesto that my friend put together, unfortunately.

From what we have seen, members of the Organization do not pick their names, they are assigned a name by Xemnas.

If any of you recall, Riku wanted to protect his identity from those he cared for so that they wouldn't learn of his life in darkness; he wore the blindfold, the Organization cloak and very well could have gone by a codename prior to having Ansem's appearance, and thereby taking his name. Also, it seems that Axel has more of a chance at having a heart than even Roxas. Information? You've got it.

This does not add up either. Riku and DiZ meet for the first time in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories, and Riku is not wearing a blind fold or a black cloak. DiZ even calls Riku by his name.
And Axel having a heart over Roxas, you've got your 'facts' all mixed up. If you had read some of the more recent posts, you would see that we were disusing that because Sora willingly released his Heart and because Sora retained his human form, he created Roxas, a Special Nobody, and they share Sora's Heart. And because Roxas has a Heart, he in causes Axel to also feel like he has a Heart when they are together.

-Case 1: Sora is a 14 year old kid when he earns title of Keyblade Master, and honestly, did he want this position at the expense of breaking his relationship with Riku and Kairi? He wouldn't, but the Keyblade chooses its master, so what's he to do?
-The hidden side of Sora: Roxas clearly doesn't want to fight, probably what Sora actually wanted to do in the first place, and would much rather spend summer vacation lounging with friends. Fact.

Roxas was in the Artificial Twilight Town when he was on his summer vacation. Regardless if he wanted to have it or not, it was an illusion based on false memories. Roxas believed that he had lived his entire life in Twilight Town, but he had only been there for a couple of days, in the Artificial Twilight Town of course.

-Case 2: Kairi is a strong willed Princess of Heart who refuses to be branded a princess. She has to keep up with two island boys and fit in, so lagging behind and acting helpless and girly are not on her list of to-do's.
-The hidden side of Kairi: Namine is timid and not confident in herself. Secretly, she is like the princess atop the tower that Kairi very well could have wanted to be.

I don't really have anything to say to this.

-Case 3: Riku was jealous of Sora and yet appreciated his best friend's talents. He tried to make a point in Sora's face that he was number one, just to flex his muscles a bit. Now, if he showed his approval of Sora's abilities, he wouldn't be so high and mighty, would he? Therefore, he hid this side from the world to protect his powerful persona.
-The hidden side of Riku: Axel is the opposite. He clearly appreciates Roxas's efforts in the Organization, be it sparring, missions, or simply exchanging thoughts atop the clock tower. Axel tells Roxas, more in the novelizations of the games than anywhere else, that he is a good friend. In short, Axel is the side of Riku who didn't want to reveal himself.

Again, nothing to really comment on except for Axel being Riku's Nobody. It's impossible.

-Riku clearly crushed on Kairi and displayed acts of chivalry greater than Sora could have ever done in all three games together.

-Axel, while less heroic and passionate in his protective actions, saves Namine in Castle Oblivion and in KHII at least four times--freeing her from Marluxia, freeing her from a locked closet, taking care of her while she isn't with Riku, and granting her wish to see Kairi. Similarly in KHII, rather than harming Kairi as he kidnaps her, he merely takes her arm and pulls her into darkness with no intentions of using force. Why does he open a portal for Sora to go through in Betwixt and Between? For Kairi and Sora's benefit. Call it a way to "make up" for not only trying to harm Roxas, but for putting Kairi and Sora in harms way. A very Riku-esque thing to do.

-Riku and Axel's eye color are unique to them and only them. Aqua; not green, folks. Some drop palettes counter this argument, so it's hardly the most important factor here.
-Stature, posture, gesticulation, even hair style (given that Axel's hair be watered down some): all very similar

These are all very nice observation, but are ultimately not possible. Riku was never a Heartless, therefor he never created a Nobody, therefor Axel is not his Nobody.

Just as Riku wanted to hide himself from the world after throwing himself into darkness, Axel would want to protect Riku's true identity, and thus give Xemnas a fake name to re-create. This could be why their names do not match up.

Those are the more important points to the manifesto, and why I say Axel is most definitely NOT "Ale" because he's "hahaha. BEER." And his relation to Reno? Don't even get me started.

Actually, in an interview that I have not read, Nomura states that Axel's true name is Ale and is a reference to Reno's favorite drink. Although Reno will not make a KH appearance, Axel is basically his Nobody, or just Reno. Nomura wanted to see what it would be like to see Reno in a new situation, thus Axel was born.

[Lemon]

Whoah, whoah, whoah, you're suggesting that Axel is Riku's Nobody? No matter how much evidence you use, there will always be one flaw: Riku was never a Heartless and never created a Nobody.

That is the biggest flaw in this theory. Yes, Riku was never officially thrown into darkness on screen but what people fail to realize is that he spent quite an amount of time behind the scenes during KHI and KHII. During this time, something could have very well happened to him. This is why we have 358/2 coming out. However, in a way, Riku had been losing his heart throughout the game. Xehanort, before taking control of Riku's body after his fight with Sora, held a conversation with Riku in which this was said:

Riku: What? You're saying my heart's weaker than his?
Xehanort: For that instant, it was...Let your heart, your being, become darkness itself.

Yes, Riku's heart became weaker ever since he turned to darkness and became darkness, and in a sense that made him virtually "Heartless." Though his heart was inside his body, it was not his anymore, but Xehanort's. Do you remember the emblem that appeared on 90% of the Heartless in KHI, save for the Shadows and 8 others? Heartless with these emblems are "fake Heartless" created by Ansem the Wise and his apprentices for research; however, they still have no hearts. Riku had this emblem on his chest. Was he so caught up in the idea that he had become a pureblood Heartless, and allowed the darkness to eat his heart, only to forget that he truly wasn't a pureblood? Speaking hypothetically, he "lost" his heart.

From what we have seen, members of the Organization do not pick their names, they are assigned a name by Xemnas.

Also not officially true. We've only seen Roxas's scenario.

This does not add up either. Riku and DiZ meet for the first time in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories, and Riku is not wearing a blind fold or a black cloak. DiZ even calls Riku by his name.

Let's see here. Let's say for example that Axel was born pre-Hallow Bastion. Ok, so it's in this world that we as gamers see Riku show how ashamed he is for his wrong doing, i.e letting Kairi escape before Xehanort could take her heart. Even before Riku wore the blindfold and met DiZ, even before he needed to conceal who he was because he was ashamed, he was ashamed in himself, though he did not come out and admit it right away. Again, hypothetically, Riku hid himself, and though less than in KHII, he did do it. And in the case of DiZ, DiZ can call Riku by name, but does he do this in public? In the face of the Organization members?

No. In fact, he called him "Ansem." Pre-KHII, yes, he addressed him as "Riku" because he had done a very good job in protecting Riku from the outside, and thus what ever he said could not be heard; he owed Riku protection because his selfish, ruthless experiment had brought upon Riku pain.

And Axel having a heart over Roxas, you've got your 'facts' all mixed up. If you had read some of the more recent posts, you would see that we were disusing that because Sora willingly released his Heart and because Sora retained his human form, he created Roxas, a Special Nobody, and they share Sora's Heart.

And because Roxas has a Heart, he in causes Axel to also feel like he has a Heart when they are together. ...

Roxas certainly had emotions, very vivid emotions which he indeed shared with Sora, but not necessarily a heart. Now, why were the Heartless attracted to him? The Heartless did not attempt to take his "heart" in battle; they were merely attracted to the Keyblade(s) he wielded. So, from this I can say that Roxas made Axel "feel like [he] had a heart" because of those unique emotions. If you notice as well, Axel displays certain emotions of sadness, anger, happiness and nostalgia. Why? Because of the past relationship between Sora and Riku. This "next life" was Riku's chance to make up for his wrongs. So, both probably don't have hearts, that much is true, but emotions, yes.

Actually, in an interview that I have not read, Nomura states that Axel's true name is Ale and is a reference to Reno's favorite drink. Although Reno will not make a KH appearance, Axel is basically his Nobody, or just Reno. Nomura wanted to see what it would be like to see Reno in a new situation, thus Axel was born.

My response is this very true, very real interview by Nomura:

Q:Axel and Reno from "FF7 Advent Children" have the same seiyuu, and even almost the same appearance and image. Did you intend that?

Nomura: To me, Axel is an existence close to Reno, created in the same concept, but they are different people. Those two are different people but subconsciously alike. I wanted to see how it would be to have completely different characters that are really similar to each other, but hold different kind of roles in different worlds.

They are similar in every aspect from face to personality to the clothes they wear, but they are different people entirely. Please don't fall for that rumor! There is no such "Ale Interview by Nomura," I can assure you 100%. I promise.

Thank you for responding.

[Denizen]

That is the biggest flaw in this theory. Yes, Riku was never officially thrown into darkness on screen but what people fail to realize is that he spent quite an amount of time behind the scenes during KHI and KHII. During this time, something could have very well happened to him. This is why we have 358/2 coming out. However, in a way, Riku had been losing his heart throughout the game. Xehanort, before taking control of Riku's body after his fight with Sora, held a conversation with Riku in which this was said:

Riku: What? You're saying my heart's weaker than his?
Xehanort: For that instant, it was...Let your heart, your being, become darkness itself.

Yes, Riku's heart became weaker ever since he turned to darkness and became darkness, and in a sense that made him virtually "Heartless." Though his heart was inside his body, it was not his anymore, but Xehanort's. Do you remember the emblem that appeared on 90% of the Heartless in KHI, save for the Shadows and 8 others? Heartless with these emblems are "fake Heartless" created by Ansem the Wise and his apprentices for research; however, they still have no hearts. Riku had this emblem on his chest. Was he so caught up in the idea that he had become a pureblood Heartless, and allowed the darkness to eat his heart, only to forget that he truly wasn't a pureblood? Speaking hypothetically, he "lost" his heart.
Also not officially true. We've only seen Roxas's scenario.
Let's see here. Let's say for example that Axel was born pre-Hallow Bastion. Ok, so it's in this world that we as gamers see Riku show how ashamed he is for his wrong doing, i.e letting Kairi escape before Xehanort could take her heart. Even before Riku wore the blindfold and met DiZ, even before he needed to conceal who he was because he was ashamed, he was ashamed in himself, though he did not come out and admit it right away. Again, hypothetically, Riku hid himself, and though less than in KHII, he did do it. And in the case of DiZ, DiZ can call Riku by name, but does he do this in public? In the face of the Organization members?

No. In fact, he called him "Ansem." Pre-KHII, yes, he addressed him as "Riku" because he had done a very good job in protecting Riku from the outside, and thus what ever he said could not be heard; he owed Riku protection because his selfish, ruthless experiment had brought upon Riku pain.
Roxas certainly had emotions, very vivid emotions which he indeed shared with Sora, but not necessarily a heart. Now, why were the Heartless attracted to him? The Heartless did not attempt to take his "heart" in battle; they were merely attracted to the Keyblade(s) he wielded. So, from this I can say that Roxas made Axel "feel like [he] had a heart" because of those unique emotions. If you notice as well, Axel displays certain emotions of sadness, anger, happiness and nostalgia. Why? Because of the past relationship between Sora and Riku. This "next life" was Riku's chance to make up for his wrongs. So, both probably don't have hearts, that much is true, but emotions, yes.
My response is this very true, very real interview by Nomura:

Q:Axel and Reno from "FF7 Advent Children" have the same seiyuu, and even almost the same appearance and image. Did you intend that?

Nomura: To me, Axel is an existence close to Reno, created in the same concept, but they are different people. Those two are different people but subconsciously alike. I wanted to see how it would be to have completely different characters that are really similar to each other, but hold different kind of roles in different worlds.

They are similar in every aspect from face to personality to the clothes they wear, but they are different people entirely. Please don't fall for that rumor! There is no such "Ale Interview by Nomura," I can assure you 100%. I promise.

Thank you for responding.

That all looks very well researched, but there is no way.

Explain the extremely large age gap between Riku and Axel, please. Even in Chain of Memories, Axel looks way older than Riku.

And.

Axel dies in KHII and does not reunite with Riku. Shouldn't this have an adverse effect on Riku? How did Riku retain a human form if he was ever a Heartless?

In the scene where Riku reminds Sora that he was once a Heartless, why wouldn't Riku chime in as well? Sora was clearly depressed when he remembered this. It would have been perfect timing for Riku to come clean.

They don't even look remotely alike.

And why doesn't Axel wield a Keyblade if Riku does? And please don't say that Axel gives Sora a Keyblade, because Sora has gotten a Keyblade from just about everyone in the series and most of them were not wielders.

[Lemon]

Explain the extremely large age gap between Riku and Axel, please. Even in Chain of Memories, Axel looks way older than Riku.

Ok. Take for example Sora. When Sora was 14, Roxas appeared older when he was born in Twilight Town. Now take for example Kairi. She was also 14 when Namine was born, and Namine appeared quite younger in Chain of Memories. Xemnas: appears younger than Ansem the Wise. For these reasons, age is hardly relevant. The Nobody could appear older or younger.

Axel dies in KHII and does not reunite with Riku. Shouldn't this have an adverse effect on Riku? How did Riku retain a human form if he was ever a Heartless?

Do we know that he did not reunite with Riku? From the looks of things, probably not. And he didn't have to. It would have been impossible anyway.

Here's the thing. Xemnas stated in KHII+FM after Axel's "death" that he had awoken Roxas within Sora, and because of that he would be born a new person--complete with his own heart. Namine also states this in the novelizations of the game, saying that Axel had not died, but faded in search of his heart in darkness. Now, Axel could not hope to return to the Riku he was born from. The Riku from KHI was nearly consumed by darkness and fowl power whereas the KHII Riku was better aware of his mistakes and all in all a better person who wanted to utilize both light and dark, not avoid them. Riku had changed so drastically that Axel probably couldn't join together with him even if he tried. I'm sure if they'd met in Chain of Memories face to face, then they would have become one person.

Now, as to why Riku would retain a human form, let's consider the question: "Why would Kairi retain her form?" Namine and Roxas are "special Nobodies," that much is true. If Axel had been born from Riku "losing his heart" in the way I described before, then that would make him special as well. Because Riku still had his heart while made a part of Xehanort, he was still able to hold onto his feelings as Sora did, and because he was never turned into a pureblood Heartless, he kept his body as Kairi did prior to losing her heart.

Of course Riku would never tell Sora that he became a Heartless. There were certain things that Sora was not ready to know; as to what those were, we do not know. Again, this is why we have 358/2 Days coming out, to give us a view of what Riku and the King were doing in their time behind the scenes. Riku cares about Sora and because of that he had no reason to add stress to him. "I didn't want you to find me." "I didn't want you to see me...not like this...I couldn't." It doesn't matter if Sora was depressed telling this story. It doesn't matter if Riku still felt ashamed in himself. The two had other things to do: defeat what remained of the Organization and find Kairi at Destiny Islands. Riku would have to wait for another time to tell him.

They don't even look remotely alike.

Look closely. Water down Axel's hair, add hair gel to Riku's, they'd look fairly similar. Posture. Gesticulation. If you count 16 year old Riku, then their height would be near the same. In most cases their eye color matches perfectly. Of course they would never match perfectly; a Nobody only has vague similarities to its Somebody.

And why doesn't Axel wield a Keyblade if Riku does? And please don't say that Axel gives Sora a Keyblade, because Sora has gotten a Keyblade from just about everyone in the series and most of them were not wielders.

First of all, Riku only had a Keyblade after he regained his "true form" before fighting alongside Sora against Xemnas. This was at the end, the last battle, of KHII. His other weapon was the Soul Eater, the weapon forged from the darkness in his heart which he had used in all of KHI, Chain of Memories and a majority of KHII. This was not a Keyblade. Having said that, Axel could not wield a Keyblade if he was born prior to Riku obtaining one.

Sora received keychains.

[Denizen]

Ok. Take for example Sora. When Sora was 15, Roxas appeared older when he was born in Twilight Town. Now take for example Kairi. She was also 15 when Namine was born, and Namine appeared quite younger in Chain of Memories. Xemnas: appears younger than Ansem the Wise. For these reasons, age is hardly relevant. The Nobody could appear older or younger.

Okay, this statement is full of flaws and makes no sense.
Sora and Kairi are 14 years old in Kingdom Hearts, Riku is 15.
Kairi and Naminé have always looked the same age.
Sora and Roxas have always looked the same age.
And I have no idea why you are comparing Xemnas to Ansem the Wise, but you have not been making a lot of sense anyways.

The point is, a Nobody is the shell left behind by a Heartless. Some Nobodies retain a human form, close to their original form, but still mutate slightly. But, it's still the same body. It makes no sense what so ever for a Nobody to be born older than its original self.

Here's the thing. Xemnas stated in KHII+FM after Axel's "death" that he had awoken Roxas within Sora, and because of that he would be born a new person--complete with his own heart. Namine also states this in the novelizations of the game, saying that Axel had not died, but faded in search of his heart in darkness. Now, Axel could not hope to return to the Riku he was born from. The Riku from KHI was nearly consumed by darkness and fowl power whereas the KHII Riku was better aware of his mistakes and all in all a better person who wanted to utilize both light and dark, not avoid them. Riku had changed so drastically that Axel probably couldn't join together with him even if he tried. I'm sure if they'd met in Chain of Memories face to face, then they would have become one person.

Now, as to why Riku would retain a human form, let's consider the question: "Why would Kairi retain her form?" Namine and Roxas are "special Nobodies," that much is true. If Axel had been born from Riku "losing his heart" in the way I described before, then that would make him special as well. Because Riku still had his heart while made a part of Xehanort, he was still able to hold onto his feelings as Sora did, and because he was never turned into a pureblood Heartless, he kept his body as Kairi did prior to losing her heart.

Of course Riku would never tell Sora that he became a Heartless. There were certain things that Sora was not ready to know; as to what those were, we do not know. Again, this is why we have 358/2 Days coming out, to give us a view of what Riku and the King were doing in their time behind the scenes. Riku cares about Sora and because of that he had no reason to add stress to him. "I didn't want you to find me." "I didn't want you to see me...not like this...I couldn't." It doesn't matter if Sora was depressed telling this story. It doesn't matter if Riku still felt ashamed in himself. The two had other things to do: defeat what remained of the Organization and find Kairi at Destiny Islands. Riku would have to wait for another time to tell him.

Why would you quote the books? What relevance is that?

Look closely. Water down Axel's hair, add hair gel to Riku's, they'd look fairly similar. Posture. Gesticulation. If you count 16 year old Riku, then their height would be near the same. In most cases their eye color matches perfectly. Of course they would never match perfectly; a Nobody only has vague similarities to its Somebody.

Yes, they have remotely similar hair.
However, their bodies are nothing alike, which is why they are not the same.
Riku is not crazy buff, but he is fit. Axel is piratically emaciated.
Riku has bright blue eyes and Axel has bright green eyes... I don't see the resemblance there?
Again, humanoid Nobodies do tend to mutate a little, but still resemble their original self. Xehanort and his Heartless and Xemnas all look remotely the same. So do Sora and Roxas and Kairi and Naminé.

First of all, Riku only had a Keyblade after he regained his "true form" before fighting alongside Sora against Xemnas. This was at the end, the last battle, of KHII. His other weapon was the Soul Eater, the weapon forged from the darkness in his heart which he had used in all of KHI, Chain of Memories and a majority of KHII. This was not a Keyblade. Having said that, Axel could not wield a Keyblade if he was born prior to Riku obtaining one.

Au contraire.

If you recall from Kingdom Heart, Riku is the true/original wielder of the Kingdom Key.
But, because Riku's heart was weaker than Sora's, he lost it. But he still managed to steal it from Sora and utilize it for a bit.

---
Overall, your argument, or your friend's, falls short.

[Lemon]

Okay, this statement is full of flaws and makes no sense.
Sora and Kairi are 14 years old in Kingdom Hearts, Riku is 15.
Kairi and Naminé have always looked the same age.
Sora and Roxas have always looked the same age.
And I have no idea why you are comparing Xemnas to Ansem the Wise, but you have not been making a lot of sense anyways.

The point is, a Nobody is the shell left behind by a Heartless. Some Nobodies retain a human form, close to their original form, but still mutate slightly. But, it's still the same body. It makes no sense what so ever for a Nobody to be born older than its original self.

Excuse me. Minor mistake. Moving along.

No. Not always.

Because Xemnas was the Nobody of Ansem the Wise.

Do we even know Axel's age? Age is not relevant.

Why would you quote the books? What relevance is that?

The books remain a very important part of the series, and in fact they tell extremely important facts that were left out of the original games. Perhaps people should pay more attention to paper sources rather than internet.

Yes, they have remotely similar hair.
However, their bodies are nothing alike, which is why they are not the same.
Riku is not crazy buff, but he is fit. Axel is piratically emaciated.
Riku has bright blue eyes and Axel has bright green eyes... I don't see the resemblance there?
Again, humanoid Nobodies do tend to mutate a little, but still resemble their original self. Xehanort and his Heartless and Xemnas all look remotely the same. So do Sora and Roxas and Kairi and Naminé.

Riku is rather skinny, not as skinny as Axel, but he is a skinny boy. His arms are pushed farther back on his body as Axel's are. Axel in fact does not have green eyes, but in certain lighting he does appear to have them. I did multiple palette drop tests on both of their eyes on HD photos, and they do match up to a lighter aquamarine color. Some renders suggest otherwise, in-game shots don't, so which renders of Axel and Riku reveal their true eye color? Having said that, eye color should not be a large factor; the possibilities of color are endless.

If you recall from Kingdom Heart, Riku is the true/original wielder of the Kingdom Key.
But, because Riku's heart was weaker than Sora's, he lost it. But he still managed to steal it from Sora and utilize it for a bit.

Yes, he did wield the Keyblade for a short while, and this is where I have to explain a little bit.

Her theory--which I do not support--is that Axel was born when Riku merged with Xehanort, quite a while after Riku lost to Sora and lost his power over the Kingdom Key. Now, if that was the case, then Axel would have been born after Riku initially had the Keyblade, rendering him a non-Keyblade Master. The problem with this theory is that Roxas was born fairly close to Riku joining with Xehanort, meaning that Axel and Roxas would have been born close to each other even with four other members in between them. I for one do not believe in that theory and stand by the theory of Axel being born during a time when Riku was off screen in KHI before he held the Keyblade in Hallow Bastion.

I understand why it's a difficult theory to grasp, love. I'd prefer to wait for 358/2 to come out and clarify. These photos seem to say a lot, regardless.

http://i41.tinypic.com/345yc0p.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc278/h...i-sora-riku.jpg

[Denizen]

Excuse me. Minor mistake. Moving along.

No. Not always.

Because Xemnas was the Nobody of Ansem the Wise.

Do we even know Axel's age? Age is not relevant.

Wh-Wh-Whaaat?
You did it again.
XEMNAS IS NOT THE NOBODY OF ANSEM THE WISE, STOP SAYING THAT. Xemnas is Xehanort's Nobody. Ansem the Wise was never a Heartless, therefor never created a Nobody. But, I really should not have to explain that.

And yes it is, age is extremely relevant at the moment. You are suggesting that a 15 year old boy produced a Nobody that looks at least 10 years his senior. And seeing as Nobodies are the exact bodies of their original self, you make no sense.

The books remain a very important part of the series, and in fact they tell extremely important facts that were left out of the original games. Perhaps people should pay more attention to paper sources rather than internet.

Oh yeah, even though the books are written by Shiro Amano, who had nothing to do with the creation of the actual series. Even though he closely follows the games, he has taken it upon himself to modify plenty.

I mean, doesn't the novelization oh KHII also state that Xaldin survived his encounter with Sora, returned the World that Never Was, only to be killed be a 'Vexen Clone'?
Same for Riku Replica in the CoM manga. We know he dies after his final confrontation with Riku, but the manga states that he actually just tries to make himself look taller than the real Riku, uses a piece of rice cake to make a new 'good luck charm', and even converses with the before mentioned 'Vexen Clones'.

Obviously, no matter how funny they may be, they should be viewed as remotely related non-canon.

Riku is rather skinny, not as skinny as Axel, but he is a skinny boy. His arms are pushed farther back on his body as Axel's are. Axel in fact does not have green eyes, but in certain lighting he does appear to have them. I did multiple palette drop tests on both of their eyes on HD photos, and they do match up to a lighter aquamarine color. Some renders suggest otherwise, in-game shots don't, so which renders of Axel and Riku reveal their true eye color? Having said that, eye color should not be a large factor; the possibilities of color are endless.

Okay, so how can Axel be skinnier than Riku, if Axel is Riku's Nobody? I mean, that would mean that Axel is literally Riku's body, acting on its own will... But you believe that Axel can look older and skinnier and basically nothing like Riku?
Axel has green eyes. I don't see why you want to argue with me over this. In every single picture that clearly depicts Axel's eyes, you can clearly tell that they are green. There is no need for any palette tests or other craziness. Axel has green eyes. Bright green, if that helps you sleep at night.
And Riku clearly has bright or light blue eyes. But still, they are not the same. However, Sora and Roxas both have blue eyes. Kairi and Naminé both have blue eyes. Although Xehanort has brown eyes, both his Hearltess and Nobody have orange or golden eyes.

Yes, he did wield the Keyblade for a short while, and this is where I have to explain a little bit.

Her theory--which I do not support--is that Axel was born when Riku merged with Xehanort, quite a while after Riku lost to Sora and lost his power over the Kingdom Key. Now, if that was the case, then Axel would have been born after Riku initially had the Keyblade, rendering him a non-Keyblade Master. The problem with this theory is that Roxas was born fairly close to Riku joining with Xehanort, meaning that Axel and Roxas would have been born close to each other even with four other members in between them. I for one do not believe in that theory and stand by the theory of Axel being born during a time when Riku was off screen in KHI before he held the Keyblade in Hallow Bastion.

I might sounds crazy saying this, but even though Riku was not physically wielding the Kingdom Key throughout most of KH1, he was still it's true/original master. So, even though he isn't using it, isn't he still a Keyblade master/wielder?

Okay, this is what happened: Riku welcomed Xehanort's Heartless, the Heart of Xehanot that was corrupted with Darkness, into his body.
Then, Xehanort's Heartless took over Riku's body and manipulated it to resemble himself.
Then Sora beat his brains in and Riku regained control.
Then Xehanort's Heartless got a little uppity.
Riku beat him.
Then Riku accepted the Darkness, which in turn made him look like Xehanort's Heartless, again, unless he wears a blindfold.

So... Where exactly do you place Riku being turned into a Heartless, giving birth to Axel, and then miraculously regaining his human form?

I understand why it's a difficult theory to grasp, love. I'd prefer to wait for 358/2 to come out and clarify. These photos seem to say a lot, regardless.

http://i41.tinypic.com/345yc0p.jpg
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc278/h...i-sora-riku.jpg

Hmm, yes.
These photos depict Axel with eyes that are freaking green as green gets! Hah, but seriously.

I believe that that is meant to be interpreted on a more symbolic level than literal.
I mean, I could interpret that Kairi=Roxas, Sora=Xion, and Riku=Axel from your way of interpretation.
Do you see what I mean?
There just isn't enough stability with what you are saying. No backbone to support it.

This concept is hard to grasp because it can't be proven true because no facts support it and all of this alleged research, as you made a wonderful example with those two pictures, is based on opinion based on personal interpretation.

You and your friend still fall short.

[Lemon]

Excuse me; that was a typo on my part. I had meant to type Xehanort, not Xemnas. Moving on.

Oh yeah, even though the books are written by Shiro Amano, who had nothing to do with the creation of the actual series. Even though he closely follows the games, he has taken it upon himself to modify plenty.

I mean, doesn't the novelization oh KHII also state that Xaldin survived his encounter with Sora, returned the World that Never Was, only to be killed be a 'Vexen Clone'?

Same for Riku Replica in the CoM manga. We know he dies after his final confrontation with Riku, but the manga states that he actually just tries to make himself look taller than the real Riku, uses a piece of rice cake to make a new 'good luck charm', and even converses with the before mentioned 'Vexen Clones'.

Obviously, no matter how funny they may be, they should be viewed as remotely related non-canon.

First, I'm referring to the actual novel of the game, not the graphic novel as they are not accurate to the game at all. There is a huge difference, a completely different story all together which contains many, many details that were left out of the Kingdom Hearts series. For example, Axel, on a mission with Roxas, was responsible for releasing Diablo, Malificent's raven, from it's cage--thus the one responsible for Malificent's appearance in KHII.

The graphic, fully illustrated novels are of no importance.

Okay, so how can Axel be skinnier than Riku, if Axel is Riku's Nobody? I mean, that would mean that Axel is literally Riku's body, acting on its own will... But you believe that Axel can look older and skinnier and basically nothing like Riku?

Axel has green eyes. I don't see why you want to argue with me over this. In every single picture that clearly depicts Axel's eyes, you can clearly tell that they are green. There is no need for any palette tests or other craziness. Axel has green eyes. Bright green, if that helps you sleep at night.

And Riku clearly has bright or light blue eyes. But still, they are not the same. However, Sora and Roxas both have blue eyes. Kairi and Naminé both have blue eyes. Although Xehanort has brown eyes, both his Hearltess and Nobody have orange or golden eyes.

Alright. Part of the manifesto:

Axel's skinniness could have a lot to do with the fact that he's well over six feet tall, and since neither Riku nor Xehanort appeared to reach that altitude, the muscle mass of the original bodies would suddenly be spread much thinner than it was really intended to be.

If you look at the altercation between Axel and Roxas on The 4th Day, you can see that Axel is a good head and a half taller than Roxas...and if we assume Roxas, as a 14-15-year-old-boy, is just shy of five feet (see full height analysis here), that would put Axel at 6'3" easy. Riku shoots up over the year he and Sora are separated, but there's no way his muscle distribution was intended to go from about 5'2" to 6'3" in any short amount of time. Xehanort and Ansem were a bit taller than Riku, but nothing to write home about, and neither of them were too bulky either. So in the case of combining two averagely built young men who capped out at probably under 6' and producing a Nobody of a significantly taller stature...well obviously he'd look a little undernourished. And while Kairi and Naminé appear to be of like height, Roxas does appear to be taller than Sora--and even if he's exactly the same height as Sora, he was created back about a year ago before Sora grew too tall for his goofy red jumpsuit, recall. So there's precedent for Nobodies to either be created taller than their Somebodies, perhaps especially if their Somebodies are adolescents about to go through a major growth spurt, or for them to grow as they age. If Riku + Xehanort's Heartless produced a Nobody that was as tall as Xehanort at, say, 5'9", then Axel's growing to 6'3" is quite feasible, given that Riku shoots up a good six or eight inches between KHI and KHII.

Let's compare Axel's eyes to Vexen's. Vexen's are clearly green--as green as Aeirth's. Axel's, on the other hand, are not "bright green." Not at all.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2jbk61d.jpg There's a nice HD photo of Axel.
http://i41.tinypic.com/312to2b.png And another.
http://www.schala-kitty.net/orglix/chara/vexen.png There's a nice HD photo of Vexen.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/lieu...esto/aerith.png There's Aerith.

Huge difference, huge difference.

So... Where exactly do you place Riku being turned into a Heartless, giving birth to Axel, and then miraculously regaining his human form?

Let's give a snippet of her manifesto:

When Ansem and Riku then merge into the same being, it is basically the merging of a Heartless and a Somebody to create something entirely different. This is why I believe Axel behaves so differently from the other Nobodies in the Org--even Roxas and Naminé, who were created under oddly extenuating circumstances as well. Riku lost his body in a sense, but his heart was still strong enough to overcome Ansem's autonomy in the end. Given the highly unusual circumstances, don't you think it'd be a little odd for a Nobody not to have been created? While it is bit of an unorthodox state of affairs, what about Axel isn't unconventional, am I right?

The entire situation is highly unusual--Xehanort's Heartless was already a Heartless (meaning Xemnas already existed), and so when his body merged with Riku, who was still a Somebody at the time, there was technically an extra heart involved in the equation. Even before his battle with Ansem in the Realm of Darkness, Riku was stronger than Ansem, and so when Riku's strong heart merged with a creature that was already a Heartless to create...a Heartless (because it was still referred to as Xehanort's Heartless), there was an extra heart in the mix somewhere. And that heart was Riku's. What do you suppose happened to it? Given a lot of the unique differences Axel has from the other Nobodies--he could, quite easily, have a heart. By this logic, the argument that Axel has a heart is almost more valid than the idea that Roxas has one, which is what Axel himself seems to think. After all, Sora and Kairi's hearts were both housed within Sora, and so when he shanked himself with the 'Dark Keyblade' and became a Heartless, Roxas would have been born with no heart, because Sora did become a Heartless--we see his and Kairi's hearts flutter away, Kairi's to return to her lifeless body and Sora's to simply vanish into the air... However when Riku merges with Ansem, there's already a Heartless in the equation, and Riku never loses his body to become a Shadow. Riku becomes a Heartless because he joins with one, but he never fully loses his heart, creating the very viable--IMHO--argument that Axel may well have been created with an intact heart, since there happened to be a spare around during the process.

Hmm, yes.
These photos depict Axel with eyes that are freaking green as green gets! Hah, but seriously.

I believe that that is meant to be interpreted on a more symbolic level than literal.
I mean, I could interpret that Kairi=Roxas, Sora=Xion, and Riku=Axel from your way of interpretation.
Do you see what I mean?
There just isn't enough stability with what you are saying. No backbone to support it.

This concept is hard to grasp because it can't be proven true because no facts support it and all of this alleged research, as you made a wonderful example with those two pictures, is based on opinion based on personal interpretation.

You and your friend still fall short.

Again, the green eyes. Hm.

http://tinyurl.com/67r5mo
http://tinyurl.com/6mz5lj

Compare the two. As for the rest, I'd rather we turn to the actually manifesto as it's pretty pointless talkng about it back and forth at a stalemate. The point of a theory, a thesis, is to include personal interpretation as well a thorough research. If you'd like to read the manifesto, here's the link: http://turkish-delight.livejournal.com/287779.html#Axel and continue on with the "Further Observations" link.

For reference, are you male?

[Elemental_Sorcerer012]

Lemon, I'm sorry to tell you this, especilly after all the effort you and your friend has put into all this analyzing, but there is a great flaw in your points.

Denizen of Twilight, without question, is 100% correct. This is because it has been confirmed by Tetsuya Nomura himself in an interview that Riku did NOT in fact ever create a Heartless or Nobody due to the argued circumstances. It WAS because Riku was posessed by Xehanort's Heartless. Let us not forget that it was shown in KHI:FM that right after loosing his body, Riku's heart went stright to Kingdom Hearts where he met up with King Mickey, and as we all know, it wasn't until after Sora defeated Xehanort's Hearts was when he regained his body, thus becoming whole again. Actually, from the way how it all acted out, it can be seen as though "Ansem" was playing the indirect role of Riku's Heartless for him, where he was dwelling in the darkness of his heart.

Speaking of which, there really is no solid reason to suggest that one can create a Heartless or a Nobody simply just by "becoming the darkness" themselves. As for your speculation of Riku and Axel merging together upon meeting at the same place is false. Very early in KHII:FM+, there a scene in Twilight Town where Axel, Namine and Riku are all gathered at Sunset Hill.

[Denizen]

Excuse me; that was a typo on my part. I had meant to type Xehanort, not Xemnas. Moving on.

That's what I figured the first time, but when you typed it twice, you really had me confused.

First, I'm referring to the actual novel of the game, not the graphic novel as they are not accurate to the game at all. There is a huge difference, a completely different story all together which contains many, many details that were left out of the Kingdom Hearts series. For example, Axel, on a mission with Roxas, was responsible for releasing Diablo, Malificent's raven, from it's cage--thus the one responsible for Malificent's appearance in KHII.

Uhm, no. This wasn't in the graphic novel, this was in a little booklet that came with Kingdom Hearts II: Final Mix+.
Maybe, whoever wrote the novelization of the game included this, but it was originally released with the game.

The graphic, fully illustrated novels are of no importance.

Unless the novelization of the game is written by Tetsuya Nomura or Kazushige Nojima, it is non-canon.

Alright. Part of the manifesto:
Let's compare Axel's eyes to Vexen's. Vexen's are clearly green--as green as Aeirth's. Axel's, on the other hand, are not "bright green." Not at all.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2jbk61d.jpg There's a nice HD photo of Axel.
http://i41.tinypic.com/312to2b.png And another.
http://www.schala-kitty.net/orglix/chara/vexen.png There's a nice HD photo of Vexen.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/lieu...esto/aerith.png There's Aerith.

Huge difference, huge difference.

Alright, so Axel has a lighter shade of eyes than Vexen and Aerith, but that doesn't make Axel's eyes blue. You can call it light green, teal, aquamarine, turquoise, whatever you want.

Again, the green eyes. Hm.

http://tinyurl.com/67r5mo
http://tinyurl.com/6mz5lj

Hm, yes, how convent of you to use a low quality picture of Axel's eyes.
Why not one of the higher quality pictures you posted above?

However, I have conducted my own palette test with favorable results:



Like I said, Riku has blue eyes and Axel has green eyes.
This is no longer arguable.
I win.
You lose.

Compare the two. As for the rest, I'd rather we turn to the actually manifesto as it's pretty pointless talkng about it back and forth at a stalemate. The point of a theory, a thesis, is to include personal interpretation as well a thorough research. If you'd like to read the manifesto, here's the link: http://turkish-delight.livejournal.com/287779.html#Axel and continue on with the "Further Observations" link.

For reference, are you male?

The manifesto is a load of bs.
I have debunked these observations with indisputable facts from the series.
You and your friend's argument can no longer advance.

[Doomy]

I almost feel bad for saying this, because Lemon obviously devoted a lot of time to the theory, but Denizen of Twilight is absolutely correct, and everything he said came from a verified source. It did debunk the theory in just about every aspect.

[Denizen]

Lemon, I'm sorry to tell you this, especilly after all the effort you and your friend has put into all this analyzing, but there is a great flaw in your points.

Denizen of Twilight, without question, is 100% correct. This is because it has been confirmed by Tetsuya Nomura himself in an interview that Riku did NOT in fact ever create a Heartless or Nobody due to the argued circumstances. It WAS because Riku was posessed by Xehanort's Heartless. Let us not forget that it was shown in KHI:FM that right after loosing his body, Riku's heart went stright to Kingdom Hearts where he met up with King Mickey, and as we all know, it wasn't until after Sora defeated Xehanort's Hearts was when he regained his body, thus becoming whole again. Actually, from the way how it all acted out, it can be seen as though "Ansem" was playing the indirect role of Riku's Heartless for him, where he was dwelling in the darkness of his heart.

Speaking of which, there really is no solid reason to suggest that one can create a Heartless or a Nobody simply just by "becoming the darkness" themselves. As for your speculation of Riku and Axel merging together upon meeting at the same place is false. Very early in KHII:FM+, there a scene in Twilight Town where Axel, Namine and Riku are all gathered at Sunset Hill.

I almost feel bad for saying this, because Lemon obviously devoted a lot of time to the theory, but Denizen of Twilight is absolutely correct, and everything he said came from a verified source. It did debunk the theory in just about every aspect.

Thank you, both, for your support.


Dark_Sorcerer666, if you could provide a link to this interview where Nomura says that Riku was never a Heartless, I would very much appreciate it. It's not that I have any doubts, I just feel it would be easier if you were to show us as well.


And Lemon, I know I sound pretty harsh in my last post, but I don't mean anything by it and I don't have anything against you. Your friends manifesto is very well presented and you have defended it wonderfully. I'm just not buying what your selling.

[Elemental_Sorcerer012]

Dark_Sorcerer666, if you could provide a link to this interview where Nomura says that Riku was never a Heartless, I would very much appreciate it. It's not that I have any doubts, I just feel it would be easier if you were to show us as well.

I know! I so want to, too! But I just find that damn thing anywhere. It was something mentioned very briefly in the interview I saw it in, but I think it was one of the slightly recent ones... ._.

[Lemon]

So sorry for this late reply, but I've been rather busy as of late to get back...

Anyway, I very much appreciate all the users here that bothered to read the manifesto and the points I made, regardless that you don't agree with them, and that you've all been so understanding in your responses. I still stand by this theory, however, and know that what ever happens in the future of KH happens.

I'd reply to the speculations given above, but I suppose it's a bit on the late side. ._.;

[Neo Hartless]

I don't consider this scene too much.

I think it's only an excuse for him not to say his original line, which contains the word "Hell"*gasp!*

[7Knight-Wolf]

"I recall Axel saying Roxas made him feel like he had a heart, and Sora did the same. But this is something else.

In the scene in which Axel lets Namine escape intentionally, he starts laughing, then seems absolutely shocked, and says something to the effect of "Wait. Am I... Enjoying this? You guys are something else."

Enjoyment and surprise, both authentic. Just how heartless is Axel?"

For me this is a never-ebding debate. Nobodies are not supposed to have hearts, but several of the Organization members display genuine emotion. This troubles me, especially since Axel is my favorite character and I naturally want him to have a heart. The inconsistency could be a plot gap. However, I prefer to just stick with my own self-made opinion that while Nobodies ARE capable of emotion, they have lost the depth of that emotion, and the depth of who they are. Their deepest selves, their true identities, are not present. But it's still possible for them to remember hints of what they used to feel, and to try their very hardest to fight to get it back. For Axel, the presence of Sora and Roxas reminded him of having a heart, and he gets little inklings of it back whenever he is around them.

[Tsubasa Uehara]

Doomy, on 07 December 2008 - 10:47 AM, said:

I recall Axel saying Roxas made him feel like he had a heart, and Sora did the same. But this is something else.

In the scene in which Axel lets Namine escape intentionally, he starts laughing, then seems absolutely shocked, and says something to the effect of "Wait. Am I... Enjoying this? You guys are something else."

Enjoyment and surprise, both authentic. Just how heartless is Axel?

In my opinion, I feel that Axel has a very interesting personality and I know he's not evil. Instead of always following orders and doing what Organization XIII wants him to do and also because of Roxas, he nows put his friends above all things.

[Neo Hartless]

Tsubasa Uehara, on 28 February 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

In my opinion, I feel that Axel has a very interesting personality and I know he's not evil. Instead of always following orders and doing what Organization XIII wants him to do and also because of Roxas, he nows put his friends above all things.

Which is one of the reason why 358/2's story annoys me.

Axel in Chain of Memories was a cunning psychotic backstabber with a secret agenda.

358/2 shows that agenda is protecting his fwiends.

[Captain Hazama]

Well, maybe that's Axel's true nature in COM, but then became "happy" with Roxas and Xion

[Neo Hartless]

No, their friendship in 358/2 Days began before being sent to Castle Oblivion. T'was a retcon, m'boy.

And don't try to tell me Nomura planned it in advance.

[Captain Hazama]

Well, maybe he felt bad for Roxas or he subconciously became friends with him because of Lea and Ventus

[Neo Hartless]

That's what happened.

But to me that's the point he went from a really cool character to another "I'll do anything for my friends" guy this series is full of.

[Captain Hazama]

Nomura will probably do a side story of Axel, sadly.

[Tsubasa Uehara]

Neo Hartless, on 28 February 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Which is one of the reason why 358/2's story annoys me.

Axel in Chain of Memories was a cunning psychotic backstabber with a secret agenda.

358/2 shows that agenda is protecting his fwiends.

Just my opinion, but didn't Axel in Chain of Memories "saved" Sora, in a way and also when Axel was trying to face Marluxia he didn't want to hurt Namine. So you could probably say that he had both agendas (if that made any sense). But I may be wrong.

This post has been edited by Tsubasa Uehara: 29 February 2012 - 01:25 AM

[Jess]

LoveIsOver, on 28 February 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

Nomura will probably do a side story of Axel, sadly.

Oh... yes, why would we want to explore one of the series' richest characters. What a HORRIBLE idea.