[supyro]

I don't know how many there are in the game but there's something that happens in KH:BBS that destroys any sense it ever had in KH2...(seen it in Ven's story)

Spoiler

Goofy and Donald are at Yen Sid's tower! And they are absolutly aware of where they are right now.(as they bring Ven in front of Yen Sid) However in KH2 they had no idea what this place was and were surprised when Pete told them it was Yen Sid's tower.

I hope the rest of the story doesn't have too much of these...

[-Azarath-]

It doesn't, however the logical thing to assume is they acted this way to try and throw Pete off regarding his location. Because when they then saw Yen Sid in Kingdom Hearts II they DID appear to know him. Making this theory very logical.

[supyro]

-Azarath-, on 12 September 2010 - 04:16 AM, said:

It doesn't, however the logical thing to assume is they acted this way to try and throw Pete off regarding his location. Because when they then saw Yen Sid in Kingdom Hearts II they DID appear to know him. Making this theory very logical.

I'd say you're right, but I looked at the cutscenes from Yen Sid tower in KH2. And when they arrive Goofy/Donald see the tower and look around trying to figure out where they are, before they see Pete.
Then Pete tells them Yen Sid's lives her.
Donald freaks out "Yen Sid lives here?"
Sora asks who's Yen Sid, Donald answers it's Mickey's master. So yeah they know him, but they still don't seem to know the tower.

[-Azarath-]

Well there is an alternative possibility. Which is that the tower switches locations. We never visit Twilight Town, after all. Considering this, they may have simply been surprised about the location within/on the outer limits of Twilight Town.

[Grassy]

Actually, Nomura commented on this in the BbS Ultimania:

Quote

By the way, when Donald and Goofy visit the Mysterious Tower in “KHII”, they say “Isn’t this tower strange!” even though they know it from “KH BbS”. This is because the floors are constructed differently to the previous time they visited, which is strange (laughs).

Which is a load of crap.
They weren't even inside when they said that, and the exterior looks exactly the same.

So, yeah. Plot hole. Not a big one, but certainly irritating.

[-Azarath-]

I need to get my hands on that, seriously this could certainly answer so many questions. But I do agree, that's a bit of sloppy work.

[Karas]

Grassy, on 12 September 2010 - 12:18 PM, said:

Actually, Nomura commented on this in the BbS Ultimania:



Which is a load of crap.
They weren't even inside when they said that, and the exterior looks exactly the same.

So, yeah. Plot hole. Not a big one, but certainly irritating.

Only explanation really is that they forgot. I mean 10 years is a long time and even within their ventures in Timeless River they never fully embark on the nostalgia.
Donald: Hey, this is kinda uh...uh...
Goofy: Deja Vu!
Besides, can you really rely on two toons to remember details?
Of course they damn well remember Yensid, he trained their king. How can anyone NOT remember that.

[-Azarath-]

Very good point Karas. I never even thought about that. You make a very good point in saying that it is very possible they forgot. After all as you said, they are toons.

[Bobjam]

Hmmm maybe after COM they just failed at or should i say Ansem's machine/Namine failed at reclaiming back their distant memories of Yen Sid...but still itsa terrible plot hole ! ^^

[spoosaunc]

dont
let
me
know

What does it mean???
"Plot problems? - Kingdom Hearts Forums - Kingdom Hearts Ultimania"

[Colors]

Theres another too that doesn't make sense, how can Ienzo become an adult, when he's a Nobody, but he's a child in BBS. From where Ven met him, it took a year for all of the apprentices to betray Ansem and become nobodies.

[Keystaff Master]

Must have aged as a Nobody. Went from being around Sora and Riku's age (probably older) to being in his teens.

[Xagzan]

Which would be fine, if not for Nomura's "Nobodies don't age."

[Keystaff Master]

Xagzan, on 06 February 2011 - 10:52 PM, said:

Which would be fine, if not for Nomura's "Nobodies don't age."

Obviously that's a lie or him being a troll because they obviously do:
-Naminé ages between CoM and KH2
-I personally see Roxas looking more mature in KH2 than Days
-Ienzo becomes a Nobody at least a year after BbS, in CoM he's a young adult
-Braig does the same and has white streaks in his hair by Days
-Lea and Isa are around Ven's age in BbS but obviously in their late teens by Days

It would seem more like their aging is erratic rather than them not aging at all.

Trollmura strikes again!

[KieranCarden]

Keystaff Master, on 06 February 2011 - 11:12 PM, said:

Obviously that's a lie or him being a troll because they obviously do:
-Naminé ages between CoM and KH2
-I personally see Roxas looking more mature in KH2 than Days
-Ienzo becomes a Nobody at least a year after BbS, in CoM he's a young adult
-Braig does the same and has white streaks in his hair by Days
-Lea and Isa are around Ven's age in BbS but obviously in their late teens by Days

It would seem more like their aging is erratic rather than them not aging at all.

Trollmura strikes again!

Honestly, when it comes down to it I think Nobodies don't age, like stated. However, I think Roxas and Namine are going to be the exception when it comes to this rule because of how they were born/being special nobodies. They seem to be the exception to a lot of things. One more won't hurt.

-I can't really say anything about Roxas as the way you see him looking more mature is a personal view, however I see him as being virtually the same.
The six apprentices:

-Even doesn't change at all due to already being old. Same looks, same height.

-Ienzo is... up for heavy debate. If you wanna get technical, compare his model in BbS to how Riku looks in KH1 when he would be 15 years old. They look almost identical in features and facial structure. Compare how tall Ienzo is compared to Even in BbS, then look at how Riku is virtually the same height in Re:Com when you fight Vexen, and Sora is also right there in height during KH2:FM when you can fight Vexen. That puts put Riku and Sora at 15 years old each time, and assumingly Ienzo as well. Ienzo is in no way a child as most people like to make him out to be. His looks are what make him look young, however he has to be around 15 during BbS + 1 year to hit puberty and spark a growth spurt. The exact same thing happens with Riku and if Zexion were to still be around, both him and KH2 Riku would be nearly identical in terms of height, and age. Aside from his looks, I think the only thing making him appear young is the fact that he's a pretty sheltered child, shy, and otherwise not out-going in the least.

-Dilan and Aeleus are already older (though I wouldn't call them old) so their looks don't change that much within one year. Dilan's hair is styled differently than Xaldin's, but it's the same length. His awesome sideburns are styled differently as well, but are also the same length.

-Braig has faint graying in his hair already, though it's really hard to see. Even still, if his hair is pure black within a year there can be considerable graying depending on stress, age, and other factors. He does refer to himself as an old dude after all. A good real life example, look at Barack Obama before and after the election.

That covers everyone in the one year period.

Lea and Isa can't really be compared their Nobody counterparts in terms of age because we don't know when they became Nobodies. If they're the same age as Ventus that would put them at 15-16. Add the one year for the first 6 Organization members to be born, that makes them 16-17. We now have 9 years until the first appearance of the Organization (Xemnas in KH:FM, or we can even say Chain of Memories) at which point all 13 members have joined. Seeing as how Lea and Isa are the next to join after the first six, that's plenty of time for them to age a few years, with sufficient time leftover to recruit the other members and do all their plans and stuff... or whatever they do in that room. I'm not one to judge. Anyway, even waiting 3 or 4 years before Axel and Saix joining still gives them ample time to do everything else, and that would have put Lea and Isa at 19-20 or slightly older, a good age representation of their Nobodies.

[Keystaff Master]

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

Honestly, when it comes down to it I think Nobodies don't age, like stated. However, I think Roxas and Namine are going to be the exception when it comes to this rule because of how they were born/being special nobodies. They seem to be the exception to a lot of things. One more won't hurt.

-I can't really say anything about Roxas as the way you see him looking more mature is a personal view, however I see him as being virtually the same.

On Roxas: Like I said, yeah, just my opinion on the matter. Though, he's obviously Sora's age in KH2 (being the same height), but he would logically have been "born" the same "age" as KH1 Sora since that's when he came to be. Know what I mean? Logically, he shouldn't have looked like he did in KH2 from the get-go.

On Naminé: True, it could be to special circumstances, but Ansem the Wise does state that even though Naminé is a special Nobody she still is defined AS a Nobody and should abide by their laws. So far I see Naminé as the biggest plothole.

Though, my problem with "special" situations is that they're just ways to avoid contradicting made statements outright and it makes me question "why make the statement at all if there are such obvious situations where they're contradicted?" You feel me?

Nomrua: "Nobodies don't age."
Fan: "What about Naminé?"
Nomura: "Special situation."
Fan: "And Roxas?"
Nomura: "...Special situation."

And right there two of the most important Nobodies are exceptions to an established rule? See my problem with it? /=[

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

-Ienzo is... up for heavy debate. If you wanna get technical, compare his model in BbS to how Riku looks in KH1 when he would be 15 years old. They look almost identical in features and facial structure. Compare how tall Ienzo is compared to Even in BbS, then look at how Riku is virtually the same height in Re:Com when you fight Vexen, and Sora is also right there in height during KH2:FM when you can fight Vexen. That puts put Riku and Sora at 15 years old each time, and assumingly Ienzo as well. Ienzo is in no way a child as most people like to make him out to be. His looks are what make him look young, however he has to be around 15 during BbS + 1 year to hit puberty and spark a growth spurt. The exact same thing happens with Riku and if Zexion were to still be around, both him and KH2 Riku would be nearly identical in terms of height, and age. Aside from his looks, I think the only thing making him appear young is the fact that he's a pretty sheltered child, shy, and otherwise not out-going in the least.

You kind of said it yourself, though probably not what you wanted to convey. Sora and Riku are in their teens - so if he went from their age (teens) to being in his teens, then... there's really no aging besides the one year. Like I said, that one year = puberty. Just like Riku.

I was referring to their younger selves in BbS. Regardless, I can believe that though I would like to see a direct model comparison between Ienzo and young Riku models to get a real feel for the height differential.

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

-Braig has faint graying in his hair already, though it's really hard to see. Even still, if his hair is pure black within a year there can be considerable graying depending on stress, age, and other factors. He does refer to himself as an old dude after all. A good real life example, look at Barack Obama before and after the election.

That's a good point, after all, he doesn't seem like the type to dye his hair.

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

Lea and Isa can't really be compared their Nobody counterparts in terms of age because we don't know when they became Nobodies. If they're the same age as Ventus that would put them at 15-16. Add the one year for the first 6 Organization members to be born, that makes them 16-17. We now have 9 years until the first appearance of the Organization (Xemnas in KH:FM, or we can even say Chain of Memories) at which point all 13 members have joined. Seeing as how Lea and Isa are the next to join after the first six, that's plenty of time for them to age a few years, with sufficient time leftover to recruit the other members and do all their plans and stuff... or whatever they do in that room. I'm not one to judge. Anyway, even waiting 3 or 4 years before Axel and Saix joining still gives them ample time to do everything else, and that would have put Lea and Isa at 19-20 or slightly older, a good age representation of their Nobodies.

Yeah, but I was going off the idea that all the Nobodies in the Organization were "created" before Maleficent showed up and took over Radiant Garden (which would be a year later). I was thinking this way for a couple reasons: 1.) Where would people like Lea and Isa be in the meantime and would they willingly become part of the experiments? (they don't seem like the type...) 2.) That the Organization only had access to the equipment for their experiments in Radiant Garden and would lack another suitable base (unless TWTNW already existed and they had labs there?)

Of course, that could all be dispelled by the fact that members from seven on were simply Nobodies found by the Organization (like Lea and Isa possibly losing their hearts when Radiant Garden fell).

You know what? I'd rather have THESE questions answered then whatever Mickey and Riku were doing bumming around in the Realm of Darkness... x[

[KieranCarden]

Keystaff Master, on 07 February 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

On Roxas: Like I said, yeah, just my opinion on the matter. Though, he's obviously Sora's age in KH2 (being the same height), but he would logically have been "born" the same "age" as KH1 Sora since that's when he came to be. Know what I mean? Logically, he shouldn't have looked like he did in KH2 from the get-go.

On Naminé: True, it could be to special circumstances, but Ansem the Wise does state that even though Naminé is a special Nobody she still is defined AS a Nobody and should abide by their laws. So far I see Naminé as the biggest plothole.

Though, my problem with "special" situations is that they're just ways to avoid contradicting made statements outright and it makes me question "why make the statement at all if there are such obvious situations where they're contradicted?" You feel me?

Nomrua: "Nobodies don't age."
Fan: "What about Naminé?"
Nomura: "Special situation."
Fan: "And Roxas?"
Nomura: "...Special situation."

And right there two of the most important Nobodies are exceptions to an established rule? See my problem with it? /=[

Yeah... Namine is... well, let's just say I'm glad she's gone. And that mock conversation is awesome, still laughing xD Only because I can totally see that happening and Nomura having that "oh **** gotta think of something fast *shifty eyes*" look on his face. But yeah, I see your problem with it. I think that's a reason why I never really liked either of them as well. Whenever I would try to go back and figure out their story/situation better, it just confused the hell out of me more... and Days did not help in the least adding Xion into the mix. And they STILL throw both of them around as if their history isn't convoluted enough. That's right Re:Coded, I'm looking at you and your data within data within data worlds. >:[

Keystaff Master, on 07 February 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

I was referring to their younger selves in BbS. Regardless, I can believe that though I would like to see a direct model comparison between Ienzo and young Riku models to get a real feel for the height differential.

Lol, I wasn't expecting you to reply so fast. I started thinking about it and it hit me that you probably meant their younger selves. I took it out of my post hoping to not be caught sounding like an idiot lol, but you're too fast And yeah, a direct model would be nice. I'd pull it from the game if I knew how, but maybe somebody else reading knows how and will.

Keystaff Master, on 07 February 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

Yeah, but I was going off the idea that all the Nobodies in the Organization were "created" before Maleficent showed up and took over Radiant Garden (which would be a year later). I was thinking this way for a couple reasons: 1.) Where would people like Lea and Isa be in the meantime and would they willingly become part of the experiments? (they don't seem like the type...) 2.) That the Organization only had access to the equipment for their experiments in Radiant Garden and would lack another suitable base (unless TWTNW already existed and they had labs there?)

Yeah, that's a good way of thinking. I suppose if Lea and Isa were thrust somewhere else in the meantime it probably wouldn't have been Traverse Town like everybody else. Unless there's a story there we've yet to hear about, but I highly doubt that. Which begs the question, where did they go? I can't say the same for Isa but I always saw Lea/Axel as more of a "good" character who just wants to be strong - at least that's how I took his challenging Ventus to a fight. Maybe he was lost to darkness but that fiery drive was strong enough to form a Nobody? The journal entry states he's hung up on wanting people to remember him, so perhaps he willingly gave himself up to become a Nobody with the knowledge that he would supposedly live forever. Though who he would find out about Nobodies from is beyond me.

Yeah I'm not sure about the lab stuff for experiments either. I wanna say I vaguely remember something in Chain of Memories being mentioned having labs there, or at least performing experiments in the basement? I can't remember though. That would all depend on when they set up base at the castle though and oh yeah, Nomura hasn't told us that yet either.

Keystaff Master, on 07 February 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

Of course, that could all be dispelled by the fact that members from seven on were simply Nobodies found by the Organization (like Lea and Isa possibly losing their hearts when Radiant Garden fell).

You know what? I'd rather have THESE questions answered then whatever Mickey and Riku were doing bumming around in the Realm of Darkness... x[

That was always my take on it. They were just "found" - or recruited/sought out, but found none-the-less. The cutscene in KH2:FM pushed me in that direction, where whoever (Axel I think?) is talking to Zexion about having "just found another member yesterday." - being Marluxia. And later Zexion saying 11 members is not enough. Bah, who knows really. I'm actually most interested in how Larxene gets recruited/turned into a Nobody. Sadistic witch, can't imagine what her real self is like.

The only questions I have about Mickey and Riku in the Realm of Darkness are: did they run into Aqua? And how the hell did they get out? I'm hoping BbS Volume 2 skims over their time, but I'm more hoping that it covers in great detail the rest of the 9 years from the time Hollow Bastion fell to KH1. That way all this Nobody stuff can finally be answered that we've been wanting to know for oh, 5 or so years.

[Keystaff Master]

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Yeah... Namine is... well, let's just say I'm glad she's gone. And that mock conversation is awesome, still laughing xD Only because I can totally see that happening and Nomura having that "oh **** gotta think of something fast *shifty eyes*" look on his face. But yeah, I see your problem with it.

Haha, yeah, I like Nomura and all but he needs to get his shiz straight when he attempts to explain things. xP

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Lol, I wasn't expecting you to reply so fast. I started thinking about it and it hit me that you probably meant their younger selves. I took it out of my post hoping to not be caught sounding like an idiot lol, but you're too fast And yeah, a direct model would be nice. I'd pull it from the game if I knew how, but maybe somebody else reading knows how and will.

Sorry, I'm always eager to respond in a discussion, but I thought you'd get what I meant anyway so no worries. Though, definitely, if anyone knows how to rip the models a comparison would be much appreciated, but I still feel like Ienzo was at least younger than our 14 year old protagonists.

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Yeah, that's a good way of thinking. I suppose if Lea and Isa were thrust somewhere else in the meantime it probably wouldn't have been Traverse Town like everybody else. Unless there's a story there we've yet to hear about, but I highly doubt that. Which begs the question, where did they go? I can't say the same for Isa but I always saw Lea/Axel as more of a "good" character who just wants to be strong - at least that's how I took his challenging Ventus to a fight. Maybe he was lost to darkness but that fiery drive was strong enough to form a Nobody? The journal entry states he's hung up on wanting people to remember him, so perhaps he willingly gave himself up to become a Nobody with the knowledge that he would supposedly live forever. Though who he would find out about Nobodies from is beyond me.

I don't surmise they willingly took part in any experiments, but I can see what you're saying about Lea wanting to be remembered. I don't feel he'd give up his heart to achieve that though as he's all for getting his heart back later (maybe he didn't want to be remembered as a Nobody ). They (and others) could could have been transported Traverse Town by way of Dark Corridors, but I'd always thought they only open when a world is completely swallowed (like Destiny Islands). I feel if Lea and Isa or anyone of the like were to go anywhere it would have been by Gummi Ship like Leon and the gang. It does beg the question of how Cloud got to Olympus Coliseum; possibly by a Dark Corridor (coincidentally, there's no Gummi Ship baring Cloud's name in KH1 while the other FF characters have their respective ships)? Cloud is just a thought though, don't want to get too off-topic (I'd love to discuss the FF gang and how they got around in the future though! ).

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Yeah I'm not sure about the lab stuff for experiments either. I wanna say I vaguely remember something in Chain of Memories being mentioned having labs there, or at least performing experiments in the basement? I can't remember though. That would all depend on when they set up base at the castle though and oh yeah, Nomura hasn't told us that yet either.

I feel the labs in Castle Oblivion were mostly meant for Vexen's Replica experiments.

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

That was always my take on it. They were just "found" - or recruited/sought out, but found none-the-less. The cutscene in KH2:FM pushed me in that direction, where whoever (Axel I think?) is talking to Zexion about having "just found another member yesterday." - being Marluxia. And later Zexion saying 11 members is not enough. Bah, who knows really. I'm actually most interested in how Larxene gets recruited/turned into a Nobody. Sadistic witch, can't imagine what her real self is like.

I believe it was Xigbar, but I actually like that idea better. It makes more sense for them to recruit new members to further their cause rather than create new ones when their whole goal was to become whole again. When you think about it like that it makes perfect sense that members 7 through 13 were recruited and not made (otherwise that would be counter-intuitive). 8P

KieranCarden, on 07 February 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

The only questions I have about Mickey and Riku in the Realm of Darkness are: did they run into Aqua? And how the hell did they get out? I'm hoping BbS Volume 2 skims over their time, but I'm more hoping that it covers in great detail the rest of the 9 years from the time Hollow Bastion fell to KH1. That way all this Nobody stuff can finally be answered that we've been wanting to know for oh, 5 or so years.

Those are questions I believe we'll have answered in BbS Vol. 2, at least I hope so... 8[

[Colors]

Does anyone know when this whole Xehanort craze will end.

[Keystaff Master]

Colors, on 09 February 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

Does anyone know when this whole Xehanort craze will end.

When he's destroyed once and for all in KH3 and the "Xehanort Saga" is over.

[Colors]

Xehanort Saga............ theres more!?!?!?!?

[KieranCarden]

Colors, on 10 February 2011 - 04:00 AM, said:

Xehanort Saga............ theres more!?!?!?!?

According to interviews with Nomura in the Birth By Sleep Ultimania, yes. The way he put is was:

Quote

Q: It means that Kingdom Hearts III will wrap up the story so far, right?

Nomura: That’s right. I’ve heard that some fans suppose that the series will probably end with KHIII, but the developing Kingdom Hearts series is being made with the intent that everything up until KHIII, which is to come, is the first part of an even bigger series. Sora is the hero of Kingdom Hearts, but the first part of the series, unfolding now, is the Xehanort saga. Hasn’t Xehanort always been the enemy since KHI?

Q: I see. So then, KHIII will be the end of the Xehanort saga?

Nomura: If I had to, I’d say that’s the way to look at it. That’s why even if the Xehanort saga ends, there’s the possibility that a new adventure for Sora will begin.

Q: So, it’s not that “once Sora’s story is over the story of a new hero will begin”, but that the series will always have Sora as the hero, isn’t it?

Nomura: Yeah. One of the concepts of the series is that the hero Sora isn’t some special being, but a normal boy. Sure, his heart is connected to Ventus and the others, but other than that, he’s a normal kid that could have come from anywhere, that hasn’t inherited anything from anyone. I want to make Sora a character that will give the player the feeling that “even if I’m not some special being, I have the possibility buried inside of connecting with many others to accomplish things”. In Birth by Sleep, I wish for all the fans to hope to see that Sora reappears. The secret cutscene is what symbolizes this, so please work your way there, and wait for Sora’s role in the future.

http://heartstation.org/archives/2097

He also stated it in this interview as well:

http://heartstation.org/archives/2093

[Age100]

About aging nobody's, I thought of something. Maybe when nobody's are created (Normally, so don't involve Roxas and Namine don't count) they age. Remember how that poster a long while ago for KHII released and it showed Roxas as an adult? That was probably the original plan I bet.

[TTKB2]

Age100, on 11 February 2011 - 03:46 AM, said:

About aging nobody's, I thought of something. Maybe when nobody's are created (Normally, so don't involve Roxas and Namine don't count) they age. Remember how that poster a long while ago for KHII released and it showed Roxas as an adult? That was probably the original plan I bet.

Hmm... I actually like that. Probably isn't, but just makes me think. The Nobody is created when a person with a strong heart is taken by the darkness... Would it be too much to say that the Nobody then takes on the shape of what that peron's heart portrays them to be? Basically, the Nobody isn't the actual person's body, but what that person pictured him/herself to look like. Almost in the same fashion as how Ansem/Xeha's Heartless gained his appearance.

Braig - thinks he's an old man = gets the old man flair.
Lea - wants to be strong = grows up and looks like a badass (according to his opinion)
Xemnas - he's actually a whole mess, with the combination of influences going on in there, but wouldn't be surprised if his appearance took on that manifestation because that's what Xehanort's and Terra's images of themselves combined look like.

Makes things way more complicated than it has to be... which is why it probably is true.

[Colors]

So kingdom hearts will be going on and on and on and on.......................