[Keystaff Master]

TTKB2, on 11 February 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

Hmm... I actually like that. Probably isn't, but just makes me think. The Nobody is created when a person with a strong heart is taken by the darkness... Would it be too much to say that the Nobody then takes on the shape of what that peron's heart portrays them to be? Basically, the Nobody isn't the actual person's body, but what that person pictured him/herself to look like. Almost in the same fashion as how Ansem/Xeha's Heartless gained his appearance.

Braig - thinks he's an old man = gets the old man flair.
Lea - wants to be strong = grows up and looks like a badass (according to his opinion)
Xemnas - he's actually a whole mess, with the combination of influences going on in there, but wouldn't be surprised if his appearance took on that manifestation because that's what Xehanort's and Terra's images of themselves combined look like.

Makes things way more complicated than it has to be... which is why it probably is true.

The only problem I have with that is that Nobodies are supposed to be the literal "bodies" on the complete beings, so they should appear as the characters original selves (with the exception of Roxas and Naminé, due to a multitude of reasons).

[TTKB2]

Sorry, I didn't mean to say it wasn't the actual bodies. I just meant to say that their hearts, or maybe even darkness, transformed their bodies to look different.

Not an example of a Nobody changing appearance, but a real body drastically changing its appearance due to the influence of darkness in his heart: Riku.

[Keystaff Master]

TTKB2, on 12 February 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to say it wasn't the actual bodies. I just meant to say that their hearts, or maybe even darkness, transformed their bodies to look different.

Not an example of a Nobody changing appearance, but a real body drastically changing its appearance due to the influence of darkness in his heart: Riku.

I see what you mean with Riku, but that's sort of a different situation considering that Ansem, SoD and Riku were at one point a single entity. But in Kingdom Hearts you never know, could be possible.

Sort of makes me wonder how characters like Isa and Braig's eye colors changed after they became Nobodies (blue -> yellow), but I've read that due to the effects of darkness and Dark Corridors...

[KieranCarden]

Keystaff Master, on 12 February 2011 - 07:24 PM, said:

I see what you mean with Riku, but that's sort of a different situation considering that Ansem, SoD and Riku were at one point a single entity. But in Kingdom Hearts you never know, could be possible.

Sort of makes me wonder how characters like Isa and Braig's eye colors changed after they became Nobodies (blue -> yellow), but I've read that due to the effects of darkness and Dark Corridors...

Their eye color in specific was covered by Nomura in one of the BbS Ultimania interviews. Also if I remember correctly Braig's eyes changed before he became a Nobody.

Quote

-- Comparing the Organisation members when they were human to when they were in the Organisation, apart from Xehanort, only Isa and Braig have differently-shaped ears and differently-coloured eyes - why is this?

Nomura: It's a question of whether or not they're deeply connected to Xehanort. In Braig's case, comparing the scene where he's injured in his battle with Terra and flares up at Xehanort, his appearance afterwards changes, which hints that something happened with Xehanort in between.

http://forums.khinsi...-interview.html

I also doubt that the heart influences the appearance of the body, or anything like that. Considering it's the strong will of the person that's the deciding factor of whether or not a humanoid-like Nobody or a Nobody in general is born, it's highly unlikely the heart has any influence on the final shape/appearance. If there were other outside factors beside what they looked like at the time of becoming a Nobody, then theoretically I'm sure we would have some very different looking Organization members. Dilan, Aeleus, and Vexen don't look any different and I'm sure they might have also had different views of themselves or what they wanted to be. I doubt it would be a selective process.

Keystaff Master has the right idea. They're just leftover bodies so there's no reason they should change from their original selves.

This post has been edited by KieranCarden: 13 February 2011 - 06:01 AM

[Keystaff Master]

KieranCarden, on 13 February 2011 - 06:00 AM, said:

Also if I remember correctly Braig's eyes changed before he became a Nobody.

Whoa! I just went and looked around and his eyes do actually CHANGE over the course of Bbs! First he's shown with blue eyes (before his fight with Terra). Then with brownish/dark color when he confronts Master Xehanort after Terra gives him the scars. Finally they're yellow during the final bosses when he confronts Aqua at the Keyblade Graveyard. I can't believe I didn't notice, it's really interesting actually. Indeed, they turned before he even became a Nobody and they did so over the course of BbS, evidence points to them changing due to his gradual acceptance of darkness into his heart.

[Colors]

Has anybody ever gave thought about that monster behind Xehanort? It was never talked about in the story.

[KieranCarden]

Colors, on 14 February 2011 - 02:59 AM, said:

Has anybody ever gave thought about that monster behind Xehanort? It was never talked about in the story.

It's his Guardian. The same Guardian that appeared in the first Kingdom Hearts when fighting Ansem SoD, and later becomes a part of the World of Chaos. It also appears in CoM and 358/2 Days, the latter being used by Riku while in the form of Ansem SoD.

So far there's really nothing special about it. It's just a dark entity that protects its user and can be commanded to attack.

[Keystaff Master]

Colors, on 14 February 2011 - 02:59 AM, said:

Has anybody ever gave thought about that monster behind Xehanort? It was never talked about in the story.

I wouldn't say the Guardian is a "plot problem", but he is a bit of a mystery... When he first appeared in KH1 during the final boss battles he didn't seem too important, just some sort of symbiotic Heartless that Ansem, SoD was utilizing. His appearance in CoM was no surprise, but his return during the events of Days and BbS point to him as not simply being a one or two time boss deal, but actually having relevance to Xehanort's character.

General notes about him:
-He appeared to be a Pureblood Heartless as he shares many similarities with them and lacks an Emblem (unlike Ansem, SoD interestingly, but that's another deal) and, logically, he couldn't be anyway as he existed before Emblems did (BbS).
-Even though he appears to be a Pureblood he fuses with World of Chaos which seems to be an Emblem Heartless making a Pureblood-Emblem hybrid.
-His first appearance was after Master Xehanort possessed Terra's body, he made no appearance beforehand so I can only imagine that this event is connected to the Guardian in some way.
-The Guardian is connected to Terra-Xehanort and Ansem, SoD (Xehanort's Heartless) specifically. There doesn't seem to be a connection between the Guardian and Xemnas. Enforces the idea that the Guardian is connected to the heart.

I personally think he's just a Heartless manifestation of one's inner darkness, but he could be something more. You never know, little things in KH that seem insignificant can end up having a huge role in later games in the series.

[Colors]

I guess the Guardian could be a huge part of the story..............?

[Colors]

I guess the Guardian could be a huge part of the story..............?Hmm I wonder?

[nova]

I don't think the Guardian is a huge point of the story. I think it was more-so that Xehanort was granted stronger powers with Terra's youth, and grabbed onto a heartless to help make him even stronger. It's more like a personal choice, right? The Guardian is kinda irrelevant, in Xehanort's case the eye change might be simply because he decided to make such a personal connection with the darkness in the first place.

Old-man Xehanort might not have had the strength (which is proved by his shenanigans to take over Terra), and Xemnas is a nobody. Nobodies don't have particular influence over Heartless. Nobodies exist in the Twilight moreso than the Darkness, right (not to say they aren't dark, but that they represent "nothingness" and not "darkness")? But a human, and a heartless, have a much stronger affluence to the Darkness.. which consequently give them strength over the other beings there!

[Keystaff Master]

Shay, on 15 February 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

I don't think the Guardian is a huge point of the story. I think it was more-so that Xehanort was granted stronger powers with Terra's youth, and grabbed onto a heartless to help make him even stronger. It's more like a personal choice, right? The Guardian is kinda irrelevant, in Xehanort's case the eye change might be simply because he decided to make such a personal connection with the darkness in the first place.

Haha, I don't think he's going to be some huge mystery in the series, but he just seems... odd. After facing him during the final boss of KH1 (and seeing him in Riku's story in CoM) I honestly thought we'd never see him again. Why should we have? Ansem, SoD was dead so his Guardian should have been nixed, but then he appeared when Riku took on Ansem, SoD's form. When I first saw that I couldn't help but think: "Wow! The Guardian is back!" Then: "Wait, the Guardian is back?" I just find it interesting that at first he just seemed like a gameplay mechanic (to make Ansem, SoD fights more interesting), but he's made appearances in many of the games. Always directly linked to Xehanort no less. I don't know, like I said I don't expect him to be super-relevant, but a comment from Nomura on his relation to Xehanort would be much appreciated (though, I'll admit, I have many other things that I'd like to know that come first).

Here's something unrelated, but interesting to think about:
We know Xehanort is a amalgam of "No Heart" and "Another" with an "X" added.
His armor is encountered in a Mirage Arena boss fight and named "No Heart".
Nomura has stated that these could have some relevance.
We know Xemnas named the Org. XIII members with an "X" added do to a throwback to his obsession with the X-blade.
Is it possible that Master Xehanort took the name "Xehanort" from an amalgam of "No Heart" or "Another" with an "X" added as well? Who knows.
Yen Sid in coded stated he feared that Xehanort may return but "[not be] alone".
Nomura replied stating that "there's a reason he appears differently each time" (referring to the many faces of "Xehanort").
Current Xehanort incarnations include: Master Xehanort (who was once a young Xehanort on Destiny Islands), Terra-Xehanort (who would become Ansem the Wise's apprentice), Ansem, Seeker of Darkness (Terra-Xehanort's Heartless), Xemnas (Terra-Xehanort's Nobody), and "No Heart" (the possibly non-canon Keyblade Armor in BbS and an armor later worn by Xemnas in KH2).
The Guardian is connected in someway to Xehanort.
Many hints have been dropped that Master Eraqus exists within Terra's heart.
What is my point?

My theory is that Master Xehanort is connect to "another" entity we've yet to see. Possibly another antagonist that's been here all along hidden behind Xehanort's guise. The Guardian may become more relevant due to this idea?

Haha, just a theory and I can see many potential holes in it, but it's fun to think about. Would be epic. Hey? Maybe Mysterious Figure is related (parallel to Xemnas' ethereal blades). Just a thought though.

This post has been edited by Keystaff Master: 15 February 2011 - 09:03 PM

[KieranCarden]

Keystaff Master, on 15 February 2011 - 09:02 PM, said:

[...] but he's made appearances in many of the games. Always directly linked to Xehanort no less.

So I was looking for pictures of the Guardian because this has sparked my curiosity as to what its purpose actually is - that and it gives some nifty discussion while waiting for KH news xD I've developed some pretty far-fetched theories, but ones that surprisingly make a lot of sense (to me at least).

Anyway, when I found the picture I was hoping to find, I noticed it was "attached" to Ansem SoD and Terra-Xehanort. It's more noticeable in the Ansem SoD image as the Guardian's "tail" is literally connected to Ansem SoD's feet, while in the Terra-Xehanort image the Guardian's "tail" goes off screen. However I went and replayed Aqua's final battle against him and it indeed fades into his feet just the same.

Now, I'm sure it's been noticed before and I'm probably late on the scene as the Guardian was never something huge I paid attention to as it didn't seem significant. But this makes me think it's not actually a Heartless, or a separate entity at all. A shadow if you will, or a tail or some kind of appendix. It's like it's "physically" connected to Xehanort's heart, or perhaps is a manifestation of Xehanort's darkness.

I don't think the Guardian would have made as many appearances as it did unless it was important in some way. I don't know about it being some huge plot element, but it very well could be. Let's look at when it shows up:

Birth by Sleep: In the timeline, technically the first appearance of the Guardian, only after Xehanort becomes Terra-Xehanort. Why at this time? Perhaps Shay is right and as an old man Xehanort just didn't have the power to control it. Or he could have just never felt the need. Just as Nomura said Xemnas could have chose not to use a Keyblade, the same could be said here. Also, when Terra makes one final action against his stolen body and uses MX's Keyblade against himself to force MX out of his heart, the Guardian appears behind him as the one that's suffering and oozing away, becoming the portal to darkness that Terra falls into.

Kingdom Hearts: The first appearance for us as gamers. Seemingly a cool monster added for the final battle, but something is amiss for me. Not only does Ansem SoD use the Guardian during his "normal" fight, but when Ansem SoD fuses himself with the World of Chaos, the Guardian also shows to have been fused with it as well - quite large and more dominant than Ansem SoD in fact. To me this shows the Guardian as more than just a random heartless that's being controlled and used to attack with.

Chain of Memories: I honestly feel if the Guardian didn't have significance, they wouldn't have shown it here. There's really no reason to. It was about Riku's struggle to deal with the darkness inside him and in the end beating Ansem SoD - but there's that damn Guardian again. A more significant connection to Ansem SoD than people think? I think so.

358/2 Days: So now Riku has taken on the form of Ansem SoD by embracing the darkness in his heart. So yeah it's understandable he has dark powers, but to be able to use the Guardian as well? Mmm... something isn't sitting right. I can understand taking on the appearance of Ansem SoD due to embracing the darkness, but it's not like before where Ansem SoD actually took Riku over. So the Guardian showing up here is a mystery to me, but it's definitely important.

Kingdom Hearts II: Now, the Guardian didn't technically show up in KH2. However, I feel that since Riku used the Guardian to beat Roxas down and he still had those powers during the entire course of KH2 except the end, there's no reason to say the Guardian was absent, just never shown. It's not like you see a lot of Riku anyway until the end.

My point? The Guardian makes an appearance in nearly every major final battle from start until well, end really. Re:Coded doesn't really count as it's all just data crap anyway, which just leaves KH2 as the only game the Guardian doesn't make an appearance.

My thoughts? Not too incredibly coherent, but I'll try to sum things up. The Guardian is more vital than we think. I'm not sure how yet, but it is. I personally think that the Guardian is Master Xehanort himself in some way, perhaps his true form. I need to hash this out more, but I see that as the most plausible. I also believe the Guardian is a key as to how Ansem SoD retains a human Heartless form rather than a random giant Heartless like every other Heartless encountered.

I do firmly believe two things though.
1) We'll be seeing the Guardian again in Dream Drop Distance. Both Ansem SoD and Xemnas have been shown to appear, though in what context is still unknown. A past battle perhaps? Either way, every time Ansem SoD has shown up, the Guardian is right there.
2) Once Master Xehanort is back in Kingdom Hearts 3 (I'm assuming the old-geezer version is coming back), the Guardian won't make another appearance again. We might find out what exactly it is, but I doubt it'll be back.

This post has been edited by KieranCarden: 16 February 2011 - 06:20 PM

[Colors]

Wow so many things I didn't know about the Guardian, I wonder how everyone will react if they saw the Guardian in a twist in future KH games?

[Keystaff Master]

KieranCarden, on 16 February 2011 - 06:12 PM, said:

Anyway, when I found the picture I was hoping to find, I noticed it was "attached" to Ansem SoD and Terra-Xehanort. It's more noticeable in the Ansem SoD image as the Guardian's "tail" is literally connected to Ansem SoD's feet, while in the Terra-Xehanort image the Guardian's "tail" goes off screen. However I went and replayed Aqua's final battle against him and it indeed fades into his feet just the same.

Now, I'm sure it's been noticed before and I'm probably late on the scene as the Guardian was never something huge I paid attention to as it didn't seem significant. But this makes me think it's not actually a Heartless, or a separate entity at all. A shadow if you will, or a tail or some kind of appendix. It's like it's "physically" connected to Xehanort's heart, or perhaps is a manifestation of Xehanort's darkness.

I pretty much agree with that 100%. I forgot about it being connected at the feet of Ansem, SoD though I have noticed before. While he is Heartless-like he actually may not be a Heartless at all, even a Pureblood. He definitely appears to be a manifestation of Xehanort's inner darkness, likely his inner darkness taking a physical form. The question is why the Guardian only appears from Terra-Xehanort on and why he's never utilized by Master Xehanort, but it's quite possible he didn't appear for the reasons you've already stated. Sort of how Nomura hinted at Xemnas purposefully not using [Master Xehanort or Terra's] Keyblade, Master Xehanort may have simply chose not to use the Guardian. Still, I feel his existence may be linked with another entity in the series that has yet to reveal itself.

KieranCarden, on 16 February 2011 - 06:12 PM, said:

I do firmly believe two things though.
1) We'll be seeing the Guardian again in Dream Drop Distance. Both Ansem SoD and Xemnas have been shown to appear, though in what context is still unknown. A past battle perhaps? Either way, every time Ansem SoD has shown up, the Guardian is right there.
2) Once Master Xehanort is back in Kingdom Hearts 3 (I'm assuming the old-geezer version is coming back), the Guardian won't make another appearance again. We might find out what exactly it is, but I doubt it'll be back.

Yeah, I'm sure we'll see him in 3D alongside Ansem, SoD. I'd say it's a guarantee.

Yeah, if we get Master Xehanort back I doubt we'll be seeing the Guardian, but realize that we're going to get Terra-Xehanort before we get Master Xehanort until Terra's heart is either freed or M. Xehanort's heart is removed from Terra's body. Actually, there's no telling what will happen when we see a complete Xehanort again when you throw Terra and Eraqus's hearts into the mix...

Ooh! That makes me think of the Ansem, SoD/Master Xehanort and the Xemnas/Terra connections. Basically, Ansem, SoD being more like Master Xehanort (opening Kingdom Hearts and allowing darkness through) and Xemnas being more like Terra (wanting to find his lost friends Aqua and Ventus).

This post has been edited by Keystaff Master: 19 February 2011 - 12:06 AM

[Xagzan]

I'd be fine if we never saw MX's old man form come back. For one, Leonard Nimoy wouldn't be voicing him. But more importantly, I just can't take that form seriously. He's all hunched over, and just in general his bald head and beard make him look like some little goblin-goat creature that lives under the bridge.

We have to get Terranort reborn before MX comes anyway, since MX's nobody hasn't ever been encountered, and only Ansem was mostly related to MX, while Xemnas was Terra's body, not MX's. And Ansem and Xemnas together constitute Terranort, not MX. But if MX must eventually come back, I'd rather it be his young form. That would be much more intimidating and it would help create that feeling of despair you feel when the villain's already achieved their goal right before the final battle (in this case, the goal of getting a younger body)

This post has been edited by Xagzan: 19 February 2011 - 08:51 PM

[Ursula102]

I always thought they gave Xehanort the design/voice he has to kind of evoke a "Disney Villain" feel similar to Jafar, Maleficent, et al. Since he's technically on the same side they are. Plus, the Terra side being the cause for Xemnas helps me clean up the "why wouldn't Maleficent, etc. have a Nobody" question.

Anyway, I don't have anything to add except that all that speculation about the Guardian Heartless is interesting. I need to go back and watch the final scenes of BbS. Overall, I wouldn't be surprised. It would make sense if something else was behind Xehanort.

[Keystaff Master]

Xagzan, on 19 February 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

We have to get Terranort reborn before MX comes anyway, since MX's nobody hasn't ever been encountered, and only Ansem was mostly related to MX, while Xemnas was Terra's body, not MX's. And Ansem and Xemnas together constitute Terranort, not MX. But if MX must eventually come back, I'd rather it be his young form. That would be much more intimidating and it would help create that feeling of despair you feel when the villain's already achieved their goal right before the final battle (in this case, the goal of getting a younger body)

I don't think we'll be seeing M. Xehanort's Nobody and here's why: Thus far in the series the only Nobodies that have been encountered were born due to the complete being turning into a Heartless. I can see an argument due to Naminé being born when Sora became a Heartless as Kairi's heart was within his at the time, but realize there's a difference when compared to the Terra-Xehanort situation. Naminé is in many ways the exception to a lot of rules that govern the "Nobody" concept, but you have to make note that Naminé was born as a Nobody-like being when her true body, Kairi, was still in existence.

So, let's review this, Kairi's body was in a comatose state while her heart resided in Sora. When her heart became one with Sora's a Nobody didn't result, her body went comatose and ended up getting sucked through a Dark Corridor to who-knows-where. Dark Corridors were opening on Destiny Islands because the world was being swallowed so it's understandable that her body be transported through one. Naminé didn't come into existence until Sora's heart became a Heartless.

My point being that M. Xehanort's body simply disappeared when he transferred his heart into Terra's body and Terra-Xehanort was born. He didn't become a Heartless in any way. M. Xehanort's body doesn't seem to exist anymore and there's no evidence to say that it does. After all, his body was quite old and probably just faded away. Logically, M. Xehanort doesn't have a Nobody as his original body is gone. Terra's body IS M. Xehanort's new body, so his Nobody IS Xemnas because Xemnas IS Terra's body and soul. See where I'm coming from?

On a related note, the fact that Xehanort appeared as M. Xehanort when Yen Sid spoke of him at the end of Re:coded? Likely, due to either visually representing Xehanort coming back into existence with M. Xehanort's heart in control (as he was in control of Terra-Xehanort before his "memory loss"). Though, one can imagine that M. Xehanort's original self and body may be "born from sleep" or something like that.

This post has been edited by Keystaff Master: 21 February 2011 - 12:12 AM

[Colors]

Wow this is confusing when I think about everything detail about Xehanort?

[Captain Hazama]

I really hope that it still keeps going, contradictory to others opinions. I lovr Kingdom Hearts and forever no matter what.

[Grassy]

(Just a heads up to those reading, we are being reaaallllyyy lax about posting right now in old topics, so even though this would be considered bumping because the topic was a year old, KHU is willing to turn a blind eye to that... shhhh... so post to your heart's content and we won't be dishing out warns or closing topics unreasonably unless someone really warrants it, and even then you should be alerted ahead of time)

Anyway, LoveisOver, that certainly is the response to something that you love, you want it to go on forever. At the same time, though, sometimes stretching something like that can be a bad thing. Like, would you really want an 8th Harry Potter book, for example? I know people may want that initially but the more you think about it the more you realize that the series is better off ending on the note it did and that it feels, well, complete. As the cliche goes, all good things must come to an end.

So I think there should and will be a time when Kingdom Hearts ends. If you asked me, I would probably want it to end after KH3 but as luck would have it for you, Nomura will continue to create KH games. The games that have been produced thus far are only a part of the "Xehanort saga" and there will be a new saga after KH3, so we clearly have a ways to go!

[The 15th Member]

As they say: if it's not dry, keep milking it!

... Eh, they might not actually say that. But "they" at least practice it!

I mean goodness, just look at Pirates of the Caribbean. A good movie (the first one, that is)! But not really one demanding a sequel. And okay, I mean making the second and third one was one thing. But then a fourth? And did you know that they're seriously making a fifth? Apparently there's no quitting while they're ahead. -__-

Anyways, regardless, I think I agree with my fellow Matt. As much as it stinks to have something you love end (part of my really DOES want an 8th Harry Potter book D:), it's just sad to see the creators of said thing wearing it out past its welcome. Kingdom Heats might not be quite to that point yet, but it will be sooner or later.

No worries though! Just as I have probably read each Harry Potter book an average of 4 times, even if the series did end after KH3 I think there'd be more than enough games for you to replay to keep you busy for yeaaars... Though as it so happens they might still be releasing new games for years to come, so whatever! xD

This post has been edited by The 15th Member: 22 February 2012 - 10:16 PM

[Captain Hazama]

Well, im the type of guy who would "drink day old milk because I dont want it to go to waste" with videogames (Including Kingdom Hearts) but it would be kind of annoying with if we got up with the series with KH 89.

This post has been edited by LoveIsOver: 25 February 2012 - 06:12 AM

[nova]

KH is a series that I think is gonna have problems trying to continue on for a long amount of time, because unlike a lot of RPG series these days, it features the same characters. Eventually these characters are gonna be unuseful.
But because the community is built up around these characters, transitioning into new characters is going to be a very tough thing to do.. At this point, the series will die.

It isn't like FF where they just rebuild the characters/worlds. :/

But also I agree on the milking it until it's dry comment. I don't want to see KH turned into FF7. >< (although it's not far from, I suppose)

[Captain Hazama]

I guess. but it so sad. Unless they make new characters and plot, its going to die. But I agree with Shay now that I relized it, if the series countinues, then its going to create more bigger plot holes and its going to run out of World ideas too.